I wish AST never had a DPS buff

[Deceptus]

I kinda wish AST didn't exist. A lot of today's issues with healers is a direct result of the devs trying to make AST fit in. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true.
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100% agree.

First the AST is not the Problem Gemina.

Except at it's core it is the issue, it has caused nothing but balance issues between it and the other two healers. Tanks were in a similar situation. They had 2 and then DRK came along and then it was a constant fight to buff and nerf to give each a time in the sun and get them in raids. Then GNB Came along and they decided to go with the dedicated MT/OT dichotomy.

Whenever there is only 2 slots available and 3 healers, there are going to be balance issues. There really isn't much debating that. Serious groups will take the best two and leave the lower performing one out.

There's a reason why when you look at savage parses, WHM was the top by a LARGE margin, SCH came in second, and at a DISTANT third was AST. No one was playing them because they were simply sub par.

IMHO, They need to get a 4th healer and make it either a Shield based or a regen base and force AST to go the opposite. Then you'll have 2 Regen based, and 2 shield based and you can interchange between them.

[Lastelli]

I have to echo an earlier post I read, and mention that any utility that doesn't increase DPS is deemed as inferior. It's unquestionably true, but it is also something I strongly oppose. Due to content design, you either have to give all the healers the ability to increase rDPS, or none of them. This just won't sink in with the devs though, even though they are the ones that design the encounters.

That'a not the problem. At the end of the day, DPS is just damage, it doesn't matter how you do it as long as it's consistent and more or less equal to what other jobs bring. I mean, the emerging meta includes WHM and AST, so it's not a matter of dps utility. The problem in late HW and StB was that AST personal DPS was basically equal to WHM, while also bringing random but strong enough DPS buffs and having MUCH better oGCD heals than WHM in a game where optimal healing dictates that you minimize GCD healing, so even with very unlucky card draws, AST was still better than WHM.
At the end of the day, no matter what people say about how they enjoyed the RNG aspect of cards, they were very bad design from the beginning. First, because at all levels of play, healers should not and do not rely on RNG based defensive buffs because you can't just go "ops, didn't draw the right card, we're gonna wipe" (this is part of the reason why the old lily system sucked, it provided an rng way to slightly increase healing output). Second, because the probability of drawing the right card in the very niche scenario you may need a specific non-dps utility card was too low therefore making niche cards like the ewer, the spire or the bole close to useless and rr/minor arcana fodder. The argument that some people make that you could put those cards in your spread and use them when needed is laughable. No one used spread for things like ewer and spire, let's be real. The only way to make AST work without jeopardizing the healers' balance was by removing the rng. Sorry, but that's just how it is.

But anyway, the problem healers have now has nothing to do with AST. It has more to do with how the healing toolkits are designed, fight design, low healing requirements and this foolish tendency to simplify everything in the game because the devs hope that by making everything simple bad players will magically get good...and this is backfiring because bad players are getting even worse because they have no need to even try anymore.

[KDSilver]

I kinda wish AST didn't exist. A lot of today's issues with healers is a direct result of the devs trying to make AST fit in. I know that is a bold statement, but one that continues to ring in my ears as something I perceive to be true.

No don't worry. As much as I love and loved AST, I always felt the same.
Or I would say, I would have prefer AST to stand on its own with its unique gameplay and not all this regen/shielder mess + copy paste of WHM based toolkit.

[Seraphor]

No don't worry. As much as I love and loved AST, I always felt the same.
Or I would say, I would have prefer AST to stand on its own with its unique gameplay and not all this regen/shielder mess + copy paste of WHM based toolkit.

I'd say the problem was having a Regen/Shield dichotomy to begin with, as it prohibited the existence of other unique healers.

[KDSilver]

I'd say the problem was having a Regen/Shield dichotomy to begin with, as it prohibited the existence of other unique healers.

Of course. And it's stupid from the devs themselves to think this actually exists in the first place.
Look at scholar. He always had some regen despite being called the "shielder" healer. From the healer player and healer community, it has always been seen a very versatile healer (and he is). But from dev team point of view, it seemed like it was mostly if not completely a "shielder".

[Seraphor]

Of course. And it's stupid from the devs themselves to think this actually exists in the first place.
Look at scholar. He always had some regen despite being called the "shielder" healer. From the healer player and healer community, it has always been seen a very versatile healer (and he is). But from dev team point of view, it seemed like it was mostly if not completely a "shielder".

The real issue is that stacking shields can be really OP, hence why regens generally stack and shields generally don't. They've only been relaxing this for the sporadic shields, like Benison, Intersection and Catalyse, and of course Neutral Sect otherwise that would be gimped in AST/SCH.

But AST shielding is better now than it's ever been, which is why I think a fourth healer should mimic AST's versatility, just with a unique application of regen/shields.
Like here where I've suggested a Chemist that can apply either or at any time, basically throwing off the shackles of AST's sects and therefore requiring more thought as to which skills/rotation you use rather than just clicking on one sect or the other at the start of the fight.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...ea-for-Chemist

This should work ok, because all the other healers announce what mode they use. WHM is regens, SCH is shields and AST has a display for the Sect they're in and doesn't change once the battle commences. But it would make it more of an 'advanced' healer. The problem might be if there's 2 of the new healer...

[Seraphor]

Except tanks aren't a strict OT/MT dichotomy, and that wasn't their intention anyway.
(If this dichotomy did exist, then PLD and WAR would be the OTs, which doesn't make much sense)
Having 2 strict Regen and 2 strict Shield healers would mess things up, as you'd be expected to have one of each available, otherwise you may as well go back to having just two healers and if the other one is a SCH then you're screwed if you're a SCH.
They need to go away from the Shield/Regen dichotomy, and have a fourth healer than can be proficient in either, just like AST.
That's why they've now given every healer a shield, every healer a regen, and allowed many AST/SCH shields to overlap.

[Seraphor]

I feel like that would be taking a step backwards.
They've just gone and given WHM a shield, and allowed AST and SCH shields to stack. Plus removed all of SCH's additional DoTs.
WHM without any regens or Benison would be pretty dull, and SCH without the fairy and it's regen would be incredibly reliant on keeping a shield up at all times.
AST capitalising on delayed heals (there's only one so far) while eliminating its regens and shields would just be a direct healer under another name.

I'd much rather they spread regens and shields out across all healer jobs, and capitalised on differentiating them via job mechanics.
WHM has lilies and gains resources on using their proc'ed direct heals.
SCH uses ability amplification/spread via Tactics, and in the fairy (Eos/Selene to Seraph)
AST has cards and a couple of delayed skills.
So we come up with a fourth healer that uses unique mechanics to provide the same regens and shields that the other jobs do.

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either. All healer jobs need to have basic heals, basic aoe heals, and their own modified versions for flavour.
AST pulls different parts of each WHM and SCH, and has it's own unique skills too. It's not a WHM clone. It's just that WHM is so basic, because they want to keep it as an entry level healer, that it shares so many parts of it's toolkit. That's like saying all melee DPS are just DRG clones because they have a 1-2-3 combo and a gap closer.
I can't see us ever getting a Necromancer or a 'siphon' healer either.

[Kalise]

Plus removed all of SCH's additional DoTs

Which every SCH is thrilled about.

WHM without any regens or Benison would be pretty dull

How so? How is putting up a HoT every so often that much more exciting than pushing out a big fat heal every so often?

WHM was interesting enough for 6 years without Benison.

SCH without the fairy and it's regen would be incredibly reliant on keeping a shield up at all times.

Who said to get rid of the fairy? Or to strip them of any and all healing?

AST capitalising on delayed heals (there's only one so far) while eliminating its regens and shields would just be a direct healer under another name.

I literally stated three that exist in the game, right now, in that post.

Also, it would not simply be "A direct healer under another name" as it would be pro-active like a Shield healer as opposed to reactive like a direct healer.

I'd much rather they spread regens and shields out across all healer jobs, and capitalised on differentiating them via job mechanics.

But this stifles potential design and contributes to a level of homogenization that results in healers feeling the same just with different colour spells.

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either. All healer jobs need to have basic heals, basic aoe heals, and their own modified versions for flavour.

Not every healer needs to have Cure, Cure II, Regen, Medica and Medica II.

Just look at SCH. SCH doesn't have "Cure II" it has Adloquiem which combines "Regen". It doesn't have a Regen-alike instant heal with bonus (Like Aspected Benefic). It only has a Medica II-alike which it can use a Tactic to change into a Medica.

That's how AST is a WHM clone. Because it does run Cure, Cure II, Regen, Medica and Medica II. Called Benefic, Benefic II, Aspected Benefic, Helios and Aspected Helios. It even has a proc for Benefic II after using Benefic like the Cure II proc from Cure.

The only musts for a Healer is to have a ST and an AoE heal. However many variants they have of each and what extra effects they may or may not have doesn't really matter. Just so long as they have 1 heal that heals a single target and 1 heal that heals multiple people.

Beyond that, you have an endless expanse for design. Since nothing else is mandatory. You don't NEED a regen if you can simply cast a heal every 15-18s that heals the same amount or put up a shield that absorbs the same amount. You don't NEED a shield (Unless the game specifically designs for damage that would exceed 100% of players health, even then, a short term damage reduction buff would also work, i.e. if WHM got Shell/Protect to reduce the damage it would have the same functionality as using Benison to mitigate the damage)

These are only requirements if your goal is to make every healer be the same.

That's like saying all melee DPS are just DRG clones because they have a 1-2-3 combo and a gap closer.

Except, this analogy fails. Since DRG doesn't have a 123 combo. It has a 12345 combo. Which is not shared by literally any other melee DPS in the game.

[KDSilver]

I really don't get this whole 'WHM/SCH clone' thing either.

When AST was released :

Benefic = Cure (also proc, but different effect)
Benefic II = Cure II
Helios = Medica
Aspected Helios = Medica II
Aspected Benefic = Regen (with one less tick, but with one initial heal because how shield work in Nocturnal).
Lightspeed 150s = Presence of Mind, but with a different effect because it couldn't be the same, but the idea behind and the recast time are on the same line.
Essential Dignity = Tetra & Benediction combined. Potency scaled on remaining HP. Because you can't give more button to ast due to its card system.

Not clone 100%, but a lot of the heal given were definitly inspired from WHM gameplay (and you more or less played AST mostly the same as WHM, but with cards).
What was very unique from ast were card system, and time manipulation through Time Dilation and Celestial Opposition (gone)

But today, it's a lot different with every little heals on 60s.
Even if somehow, AST stil has some echo skills right now.

Celestial intersection could somehow be seen as Devine Benison.
Horoscope is an answer to Plenary Indulgence. (trigerring an additional heal upon using your gcd aoe heal).

But at the very base, that's where we've started from. And when I talk how AST was designed, I'm talking about when it was release and during 3.x series.

Except Aspected Benefit is closer to Adloquium than Regen. So it doesn't have a Regen.

It's instant. It has the same cure potency. It only has one tick less that is actually applied directly, which make regen and Aspected Benefic the same.

And you basically confirmed my point by saying Aspected Helios is a Medica II analogue. Why not call it a Succor analogue?

Because Scholar only has Succor as a gcd aoe heal, while whm and ast both has one direct heal and one aoe heal + side effect.
Even though AH is basically a succor as well. But when looking at the whole kit, since it's very WHM inspired, and also the same potency, that's why its commonly seen as Medica II analogue.

The only thing AST takes from WHM that is not also shared by SCH, is the fact that it has 2 tiers of basic heal, Benefic and Benefic II. And using Benefic is mostly pointless once you get II. I wouldn't complain if the spell was upgraded, and then you couldn't call it a WHM clone.

12345 includes a 123

See what I said above.