Can we please delay Savage?

[Barraind]

a week is more than enough time for any team to get all their stuff sorted

The "stuff" that keeps being brought up as what needs to be sorted clocks in at roughly 10 minutes of time, maybe 15 to 20 if you read slowly.

We arent talking about days worth of prep, its literally the length of commercial breaks in your regularly scheduled programming.

Hell, I'll even get on board with a 2 hour delay for those people who want to do that stuff minute 1 (the ONLY people this issue impacts) to get their normal raids and cutscenes in, then they can bring the servers down to patch in ex trials, crafted stuff, and savage raids.

Itll let me sleep in until a normal time on even-numbered patch days.

[Lastelli]

The "stuff" that keeps being brought up as what needs to be sorted clocks in at roughly 10 minutes of time, maybe 15 to 20 if you read slowly.

That's not really accurate. sHC groups that aim for a first week clear need to:

1) clear the normal mode raid, which takes around 1 hour if you chose to skip all cutscenes;
2) need a few hours to gather/buy things to craft the new gear and meld it (the first pieces of gear appear on the MB a couple of hours after the maintenance is over). This doesn't apply to more HC groups since they usually have their army of crafters and gatherers that do the work for them while they clear the first two turns with the previous BiS;
3) clear and farm the new ex primal for weapons. This takes 1-2 hours. These weapons are pretty much required for a week 1 clear unless your party is god-tier and can get away with crafted pentamelded weapons.

So you see, at the very least it takes several hours of preparations. For sHC groups, this is very vexing, especially if some party members can't take days off work and just want to follow a normal evening raid schedule.

Now, this wouldn't be nearly as bad if at least points 1 and 3 were removed, which is exactly what happens for the first savage tier. Let crafted gear come with savage, but at least let us enjoy the MSQ and the NM raid story instead of forcing us to skip all text if we want to play at a semi-competitive level.

[BluexBird]

Here's what I don't get - a new raid gets launched Tuesday, but you and/or your party isn't able to take part in it. The rest of the game, however, can do so.

Why does it matter if everyone else is able to raid? Why do people care if others are able to make time to raid?

Like... I would have loved to just grind learning parties until I climbed all the way to beating E8S. The reality? I only beat E7S yesterday, 2 days before the third week. And I'm OK with that.

I just don't see why this is a problem. Patches last for months on end. If you don't have time to raid now, you'll have time to do it eventually. The rest of the playerbase shouldn't have to wait on you, and there should be no reason why you should expect them to.

[Bonbori]

Please please delay the next tier >.<

Releasing Savage in the same week as everything else is tantamount to aggravated assault on crafters and gatherers. I want all the life I lost to all-nighters back ._.

IT'S STRESSFUL >.<

[Barraind]

That's not really accurate. sHC groups that aim for a first week clear need to:

1) clear the normal mode raid, which takes around 1 hour if you chose to skip all cutscenes;
2) need a few hours to gather/buy things to craft the new gear and meld it (the first pieces of gear appear on the MB a couple of hours after the maintenance is over). This doesn't apply to more HC groups since they usually have their army of crafters and gatherers that do the work for them while they clear the first two turns with the previous BiS;
3) clear and farm the new ex primal for weapons. This takes 1-2 hours. These weapons are pretty much required for a week 1 clear unless your party is god-tier and can get away with crafted pentamelded weapons.

So you see, at the very least it takes several hours of preparations. For sHC groups, this is very vexing, especially if some party members can't take days off work and just want to follow a normal evening raid schedule.

Now, this wouldn't be nearly as bad if at least points 1 and 3 were removed, which is exactly what happens for the first savage tier. Let crafted gear come with savage, but at least let us enjoy the MSQ and the NM raid story instead of forcing us to skip all text if we want to play at a semi-competitive level.

If they're holding back savage, theres an incredibly good chance they're also holding back the EX trial, new tomestones and crafted gear (You wont have the new tomestones, so the old tomestones wont be phased out, so the new tomestone mats wont be available), for the sole purpose of keeping the ilvl of available gear constant.

Which means literally the ONLY thing you're getting from the delay is the length of the cutscenes, which is about 10 minutes, on an event that ONLY impacts people who are racing to do this content the second the servers are up.

It has 0 impact on anyone who is not, as they already have the time post reset to do those things.

Its an awful argument to say that because one subset of one subset of one subset of players (the people who care about cutscenes in statics who want to race for world first clears) feel like they cannot do every bit of content simultaneously the second the content is available, we should let them save their 10 minutes by delaying content that is ready to be released by more than, and I'm being generous with this, a couple hours (and I'm mostly only saying a couple hours because it means I dont have to get up at 4 or 5 am my time to gather and craft things for the one day a patch cycle my crafting profits require me being on a timer).

As if 'It's your problem' is a compelling reason.

"Its a problem of a small minority of a small minority of a small minority so it doesnt really warrant significant consideration" is a strong argument when the rest of the playerbase are adversely affected by it, yes.

[Lastelli]

If they're holding back savage, theres an incredibly good chance they're also holding back the EX trial, new tomestones and crafted gear (You wont have the new tomestones, so the old tomestones wont be phased out, so the new tomestone mats wont be available), for the sole purpose of keeping the ilvl of available gear constant.

You're overcomplicating things. They didn't hold back the ex trials in 5.0, so why would they hold back the new ex primal? And why would they hold back the new tomestones exactly? It's way easier to make the dps check slightly harder to account for the potentially higher ilvl of the party. They can go several ways, the important thing is that they release content in a way that lets raiders jump into savage content without placing some nonsensical gates before them...just like the first savage tiers and the ultimate raids.

[BluexBird]

Guys, please. Just because the content is out there and other people are doing it, doesn't mean you're forced to also put the same amount of time and effort as they are. This is ridiculously childish.

If you want to be world first, but can't take time off work or life, then perhaps you should be reconsidering if you should even be going for world first in the first place...

[Lambdafish]

Guys, please. Just because the content is out there and other people are doing it, doesn't mean you're forced to also put the same amount of time and effort as they are. This is ridiculously childish.

If you want to be world first, but can't take time off work or life, then perhaps you should be reconsidering if you should even be going for world first in the first place...

No offence, but why is it any of your business what people want to do? Multiple valid reasons have been given as to why this change benefits the game, and so far there have been no valid reasons as to why it harms the game other than "OMG you don't have to do savage immediately", which you are further perpetuating.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario that used to be a reality for me. I get home at 6pm everyday from work and would raid at 8pm on a Tuesday. What that means is that in order for my raid group to do savage, I would need to get home, immediately log onto the game, rush through normal mode before 8pm, to then do a raid nights worth of savage. If I don't then 7 other people miss out on a raid day for the week, you tell me if I have a choice in that scenario. No, we aren't trying for world first, but that doesn't make the gating any less annoying.

Before you say "Just don't raid on that Tuesday", let me remind you that you are dictating that my static miss a raid day on principle, not because of any tangible reason.

[SaitoHikari]

No offence, but why is it any of your business what people want to do? Multiple valid reasons have been given as to why this change benefits the game, and so far there have been no valid reasons as to why it harms the game other than "OMG you don't have to do savage immediately", which you are further perpetuating.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario that used to be a reality for me. I get home at 6pm everyday from work and would raid at 8pm on a Tuesday. What that means is that in order for my raid group to do savage, I would need to get home, immediately log onto the game, rush through normal mode before 8pm, to then do a raid nights worth of savage. If I don't then 7 other people miss out on a raid day for the week, you tell me if I have a choice in that scenario. No, we aren't trying for world first, but that doesn't make the gating any less annoying.

Before you say "Just don't raid on that Tuesday", let me remind you that you are dictating that my static miss a raid day on principle, not because of any tangible reason.

Not to mention the whole argument falls apart when it's not really just about one person, but the expectations of 8 people as a whole. Some in a static will want to pace themselves through the story, while others will pressure everyone into skipping everything to run immediately.

That said, I wonder how the people advocating for SE to keep the release schedule the same would react if SE instead decides to scrap normal modes and make Savage the standard once more, like they did back in Coil. It has the benefit of the developers not having to spend development time balancing Normal mode and making gear drops from it. It also benefits crafters because now you HAVE to use crafted gear to fill in the absence of normal raid drops.

By the same line of reasoning being used to argue against delaying Savage 1 week, it's a you problem if you can't get a team together to clear Savage to see the story. You'll get to see the story eventually, either ASAP if you find a good team, or an expansion later when you can unsync it, right?

[Awha]

No offence, but why is it any of your business what people want to do? Multiple valid reasons have been given as to why this change benefits the game, and so far there have been no valid reasons as to why it harms the game other than "OMG you don't have to do savage immediately", which you are further perpetuating.

Let me give you a hypothetical scenario that used to be a reality for me. I get home at 6pm everyday from work and would raid at 8pm on a Tuesday. What that means is that in order for my raid group to do savage, I would need to get home, immediately log onto the game, rush through normal mode before 8pm, to then do a raid nights worth of savage. If I don't then 7 other people miss out on a raid day for the week, you tell me if I have a choice in that scenario. No, we aren't trying for world first, but that doesn't make the gating any less annoying.

Before you say "Just don't raid on that Tuesday", let me remind you that you are dictating that my static miss a raid day on principle, not because of any tangible reason.

I am in favor of a delay though a much shorter one then a week, I personally feel 1 day is more then enough that aside. Regarding your hypothetical since I assume it takes place with the current system "Just don't raid on that Tuesday" is a tangible reason. This entire thread is based off personal prefance, and it is highly unlikey many will change anyone minds regarding it.

Dont give anyone any ideas, we'll get people who want to delay each savage floor by a week or two because I CANT BE EXPECTED TO PUT TIME INTO PROGRESSION AND WATCHING A CUTSCENE AFTER ITS TOO HARD AND DEMANDING AND MY STATIC DOESNT GIVE A CRAP ABOUT DOING IT SO I FEEL PRESSURED TO SKIP WATCHING IT OMG and at that point people who just want to do content because theyre already paring down and holding back content will start throwing their shoes and itll be a mess.




I'm going to ask you a question I asked every guild in WoW that had issues with fighting server problems on tuesdays (because everyone was raiding on Tuesdays) and wasnt racing for firsts:

Why do you raid on Tuesdays? Or, specifically, why do you raid on a patch day?

We arent using a lockout system that locks you out of bosses for X hours. Killing something 2 minutes before reset on monday night is the exact same thing, lockout wise, as killing it on tuesday 3 seconds after a reset.

It actually runs contrary to long-term success to raid on a tuesday in any game that has a weekly lockout and resets on Tuesdays if theres another week day you arent raiding and could be, because it is more likely than not that Tuesday is going to be the day of the week that has the most stability issues. Hell, my 10man moved our 10man nights from post raid on Tuesday to post-raid on Wednesday and managed to have world 2nd and 3rd on a number of them because Tuesday was a stupid day to try and raid on any of the older NA servers, and you literally couldnt finish achievement raids on those days because zone crashes counted as a death for undying/immortal clears.

Its something almost nobody in 14 seems to pick up on.


Its also a you thing if your issue is "I'm in a raid group that if I cant make it out of the office exactly on time, I'm super behind". It sucks to be there. I've been there. But the everyone else who isnt you isnt you. If raiding on one specific Tuesday once a year (two times in every two year window) is such a huge problem, why havent you taken steps to alter how you do things that one day a year?


That is, in a nutshell, the issue.

Why should things be delayed for everyone else a full week or more because a miniscule amount of people feel rushed to complete one section of content on ONE DAY a year?


Its the equivalent of asking for gardening timers to not count down on American Thanksgiving Day on JP servers.

Slippery slopes are disingenuous, but I do get your point but even they ever did delay the content by one hour (which I would like) or a week it would not mean the devs would listen to every request the comminity made just because they listened to this one,