Ivalice Raids. I still don't get it

[Cilia]

My own questions:

Why are there Lucavi waiting around in the ruins of Rabanastre and the lower floors of Ridorana? Like, I know auracite from Ultima causes people to turn into Lucavi, but why are they there, waiting for us to encounter them, and apparently doing nothing else worthwhile?

According to Rofocale's card, it was transfigured from a noble of Rabanastre; how long it sat underground guarding Lesalia is unclear (much less why it would guard Lesalia, if information on it would be beneficial to Ultima's plan). Mateus and Hashmal, encountered on the streets, are unexplained; I surmised they were rebels who gave into the whispers of other auracite stones in desperation. Other than that it can be inferred they have the same point of origin as Rofocale. (It's never explained why they're just there, but Ivalice references, yay!) Famfrit, the lucavi fought right ouside of the Ridorana Lighthouse, is mentioned to be a (re)creation of the Duma-influenced Ba'gamnan. Belias, unfortunately, has conflicting inferences; it's implied the being is the source of the lighthouse's beacon, but personally I find it hard to believe it was just sitting there for who knows how long, and given Ba'gamnan was responsible for Famfrit...

(I assume Mateus and Hashmal aren't rampaging around Rabanastre for budgetary reasons.)

It's unexplained how the spirits of Ramza's companions are able to undergo a similar transformation, seemingly without the use of auracite.

Who was the guy who turned into the final boss of the Rabanastre raid? He ends up being named "Argath Thadalfus" when he auracited on us, but who was he before that? Why was he just waiting at the bottom of Lesalia, an ancient mythical city thought lost to time? How did he even get there? (The lorebook also asks, but does not answer, these questions.)

This is never directly explained, but between his apparently exhausted and wounded state when he appears after the battle I assumed Jenomis was possessed and we just beat the stuffing out of him until he came to his senses a la Shiva, guided down there by his research (How did he get past Rofocale? Don't worry about it, there will be more Ivalice references!).

As for Argath Thadalfus himself, his card names him a "minor noble long deceased... resurrected and granted unimaginable power by the Duma." Past that... you will very unfortunately need to do a little homework to really get what his deal is - his Tactics counterpart is, well, pretty much the same character (a classist asshole who fought alongside but ultimately betrayed Ramza), though this Argath comes to his senses and asks for forgiveness upon defeat unlike the other. Given auracite's ability to store memories, my guess was that his personality / memory had somehow been imprinted on the stone.

When Ba'Gamnan shot his subordinate at the end of the Rabanastre raid, and that subordinate just hopped back up apparently unharmed, why did just about every poster here, including those more familiar with Ivalice, speculate that it's unusual and clearly supernatural? Given that in the very next tier, the explanation given was "well, Bangaa are just really hardy, don't worry about it". So was it a plot point that was just dropped?

I don't recall seeing such speculation, but speculation is what it is precisely because it's imprecise and lacks evidence (hence my general distance). Not everything thrown at a wall sticks, and the less evidence you have the less likely it is to do so.

Speaking of dropped plot points, was there actually anything significant to Ramza Lexentale's change of attitude at the end of the Ridorana tier? Because even the NPCs commented that Ramza is acting completely different, but when the Orbonne tier was released, it turned out that Alma (who was acting pretty normally) was the one under the influence of the auracite, and Ramza explained his change in behaviour as "I was just really stressed", and everyone just dropped the issue. Was it another altered plot point?

Given Alma is possessed and kidnapped, only to be returned and have Ramza taken in her stead at the very outset of the Orbonne Monastery... maybe? The only other reason I can think of why this would happen is a particularly gratuitous another Tactics reference where Ultima is resurrected by (very temporarily) using Alma as a host. Ramza's behavior is explained as a combination of stress and typical Garlean cultural standards, though fortunately Jenomis does call him out when he gets particularly egregious with it, and his personality becomes gentler when things settle down.

If the spell Ultima was named after Ultima the High Seraph, does that make Lahabrea's comment that the Ultima spell in the Praetorium "a sliver of Zodiark's power" still accurate? I mean, as an Unsundered Ascian, presumably Lahabrea should know the truth. Is there a link between Ultima the High Seraph and Zodiark?

Yes and no. It depends on how you frame things; the way I reconcile these conflicting bits of information is by assuming that the Ultima spell is just an imitation of Ultima the High Seraph's "Ultimate Illusion." Whatever the kupo the Heart of Sabik is / was, it's connected to Zodiark - as Hydaelyn informs you before you can really start damaging the Ultima Weapon, it is "Darkness clad in steel" - so if it were simply an imitation of Ultima's "Ultimate Illusion" powered by the Heart, it would technically be a sliver of Zodiark's power, just expressed in a form imitating something that already exists.

Past that? Whoooooo knows...

(Look forward to more Ivalice stuff in a week! If you don't like it, too bad!)

[Silverquick]

First of all understand the FFXIV version takes a lot of liberties with the actual storyline of Final Fantasy Tactics.
So what I'm going to tell you about is the original story first... then we'll get into the FFXIV version.

There are Four separate, underlying plots, and they are linked.

1st:
The real power in Ivalice is the Church of Glabados, based around the divinity of Saint Ajora Glabados. The Church plays predominantly into this as its a western feudalistic society and it really mirrors it well. The story begins with a legend of how the 12 Zodiac Braves wielded these Zodiac Stones to fight against the Lucavi (think Demons, a spinoff of Lucifer) and save the world. This is the basis of the faith of the Church and of Ivalice as a whole. The belief in Saint Ajora, a central figure in the religion 12 zodiac braves who saved the world.

2nd:
Ivalice just recovering from the Fifty Year War against Ordalia. The power vacuum caused by the death of its ruler, King Omdoria, soon sparks another conflict. Princess Ovelia and the younger Prince Orinas are both candidates to the throne, with the former supported by Prince Goltana of the Black Lion, and the latter by Queen Ruvelia and her brother, Prince Larg of the White Lion. This erupts into a full-scale war known as the "Lion War", with either side using whatever means possible to secure their place in the throne.

3rd:
Nobles regard commoners and peasants as animals, and many commoners try to take revenge on the nobles, who abandoned them after the war with Ordalia. As many of them served in that war and were discarded at the end of it. It ended in a Peace treaty, but it was Ivalice who had to give up the most including reparations so they had no money to pay them anymore either. Ivalice was ripe for a civil war.

4th:
Ramza is the Youngest son of the Beoulve Noble family. Delita is his childhood friend who was taken in by Ramza's father and raised as part of their family, even paying for his education and his sister. But he is not a noble, nor is his sister. Even though Ramza's father has compassion for them, he is unique among nobles up to and including his other sons and Ramza's brothers. Namely Zalbag and Dycedarg who do not.

[Silverquick]

The Story is actually this:

Ramza and Delita are training as Squires in the Order of the Northern Sky, to eventually become knights. But a group made up of the commoners who have had enough of Nobility rises up to attempt to overthrow the nobles, called the Corpse Brigade. After several twists Ramza, Delita end up in pursuit and closing in on the leader of the Corpse Brigade who have kidnapped Delita's sister believing she was a Noble.

Zalbag is leading a force simultaneously closing in on them. When they finally clash, Ramza, Delita, and their unit win the day, but... Wiegraf the leader of the Corpse brigade holds Delita's sister hostage and threatens to kill her. Zalbag who has just arrived... orders his men to shoot Delitas sister to get to Wiegraff... (because, well she's just an animal and commoner anyway right?). Stunned, Wiegraf retreats into the hideout and sets off a chain of explosions. It ends with Delita holding his dead sister in his arms and the castle blowing up around him.

Everyone believes Delita is dead... and Ramza cuts ties with his own family after seeing what they really were, and becomes a mercenary. They run into each other again outside of the Orbonne Monestery of all places, where Ramza is in a Mercenary unit guarding Princess Ovelia.

Her personal Body Guard is actually Agrias a holy knight (A person you fight AGAINST in the Orbonne Monestary Raid which is way off). While they are fighting a band of enemy knights, Delita sneaks in and kidnaps the princess.

This leads to a chase that kicks off the string of events known as the War of the Lions.

The REAL story is that the Zodiac Braves WERE the Lucavi. They possess the bodies of Humans who used the powers of the stones, and the entire faith the Church is based on is a lie. Ultima Seraph who you fight in the Ivalice Raids WAS Saint Ajora. This is the thread that Ramza was on. They are not white auracite storing "strong emotions" the way the Ivalice Raid Storyline portrays them.

Delita was on a different path. He was with the Church playing the nobility against each other in order to destroy the nobility who he hated with every fiber of his being due to the death of his sister. So the Church will have absolute power. Which he does do in the end, and to make peace ends up marrying Princess Ovelia and taking over the throne. Delita is absolutely ruthless in his attempts to achieve this and is not the "good guy" he's portrayed as.

The Ivalice Raids, actually departs from the real storyline

Half of the bosses you fight in Orbonne Monastery were actually good guys fighting alongside Ramza... like Agrais and Mustadio Bunansa. They were not Zodiac Braves nor did they hold Zodiac Stones. To do so would have caused them to be possessed by Lucavi.

The FFXIV Storyline for Ivalice Raids is kind of ass backwards.

But if you want to know the full storyline and how it plays out if you didn't play the actual game its here...
https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki...antasy_Tactics

[Silverquick]

Now that you know that though...

I will say I STILL enjoyed the Ivalice Raids immensely... they are a spectacular Alliance Raid tier, and its probably lucky for the Devs their version of the story turned out a little too convoluted for most people to catch, so despite everything else the Raid itself REALLY plays into the feel of Ivalice and Final Fantasy Tactics even if the actual storyline did not do that very well.

So despite all of that, I did love the Ivalice Raids themselves and even the "feel" of the storyline even if it did take a lot of liberties with FF Tactics.

[Frizze]

Half of the bosses you fight in Orbonne Monastery were actually good guys fighting alongside Ramza... like Agrais and Mustadio Bunansa. They were not Zodiac Braves nor did they hold Zodiac Stones. To do so would have caused them to be possessed by Lucavi.

The FFXIV Storyline for Ivalice Raids is kind of ass backwards.

The story for this raid in this game is that Agrius, Mustadio, and Cid are guarding the sealed tomb that holds Ultima captive(which happens to be beneath the ruins of the Orbonne Monastery). Theyre specifically testing if we're strong enough to defeat her before allowing us to enter. The reasoning being part "not wanting to see more innocents die" and part "if we unseal the tomb she might escape and doom the world". Then when the fight with her starts to get intense, they jump in to help(along with their Ramza) having recognized in us the power to see the fight through to the end.

[LineageRazor]

The story for this raid in this game is that Agrius, Mustadio, and Cid are guarding the sealed tomb that holds Ultima captive(which happens to be beneath the ruins of the Orbonne Monastery). Theyre specifically testing if we're strong enough to defeat her before allowing us to enter. The reasoning being part "not wanting to see more innocents die" and part "if we unseal the tomb she might escape and doom the world". Then when the fight with her starts to get intense, they jump in to help(along with their Ramza) having recognized in us the power to see the fight through to the end.

Yup, and this is an important distinction. It shows that the Auracite can be used with NOBLE intentions, and the results are monstrous, but still good-natured beings, unlike the twisted, selfish, vengeful creatures we'd fought up to that point. The battles against Mustadio, Agrias, and Cidolfus are there to test any who would try to defeat Ultima. Anyone incapable of defeating them would stand no chance against Ultima herself. The flashback cutscenes following Orbonne Monastery show the three of them volunteering to take on that duty, in fact.

It's notable that while Auracite was created by Ultima, the stuff isn't inherently evil. It can be used for good or evil, depending on the nature and intent of the user. Ultima herself, for that matter, is presented more as something incredibly alien, rather than explicitly evil. When first encountered, she attempts to resolve the situation peaceably, with an offering of more Auracite - and seems surprised when we don't gratefully accept. It's not hard to imagine that back in the days when she was worshiped, this was a standard exchange for her.

[Alaeacus]

How much you want to bet OP skipped half the raid story dialogue. It's a pretty straight-forward story.

[JeanneOrnitier]

I think the question of how, if at all, Ultima (being) is related to Ultima (spell) has a real chance of being answered soon.

Since this image from the trailer never showed up in any of the 5.2 quests so far:

Then unless it's in Ishgard Restoration for some reason we can safely assume it's from the relic quests and therefore depicting her, since the relic quest will require completing the Ivalice raids.

[Frizze]

Yup, and this is an important distinction. It shows that the Auracite can be used with NOBLE intentions, and the results are monstrous, but still good-natured beings, unlike the twisted, selfish, vengeful creatures we'd fought up to that point. The battles against Mustadio, Agrias, and Cidolfus are there to test any who would try to defeat Ultima. Anyone incapable of defeating them would stand no chance against Ultima herself. The flashback cutscenes following Orbonne Monastery show the three of them volunteering to take on that duty, in fact.

It's notable that while Auracite was created by Ultima, the stuff isn't inherently evil. It can be used for good or evil, depending on the nature and intent of the user. Ultima herself, for that matter, is presented more as something incredibly alien, rather than explicitly evil. When first encountered, she attempts to resolve the situation peaceably, with an offering of more Auracite - and seems surprised when we don't gratefully accept. It's not hard to imagine that back in the days when she was worshiped, this was a standard exchange for her.

So i was going to add this point in my reply to Silver, but didnt want to muddy the narrative with "side details". In the original FF Tactics game they actually show an instance of the zodiac stones being used for a pure purpose. A side character is killed following a battle, and one of the stones(was it virgo? i havent replayed that game in a while) reacts to her brothers feelings and revives her. No possession, no lucavi summoning - just an honest "miracle". So the idea that Cid and company could have used the auracite to become guardians of Ultima's tomb isnt really that far-fetched - using game logic anyway.

[Zohar_Lahar]

I would like to add that some of those Lucavi were probably images of elder Primals that the auracite was used against; Belias was previously mentioned in the SMN quests by the Ascian of the Twelfth Chalice (who explicitly called it an elder primal), and gave Tristan the ability to summon Belias-egi (which is identical to the Gigas adds). I'm guessing Mateus, Hasmal, and Famfrit were likewise from a now forgotten era.

As for Ultima and Zodiark, note how Ultima has the same pose as the recurring statue of Zodiark.