Off Tank Stance?

[Hierro]

I'm tempted to say "you're talking in the context of casual content, so it doesn't matter."

However, I'll put in my two cents: Always be prepared to MT. Yes, that does mean I am telling you to keep your stance on at all times, but be prepared to MT for whatever reason. Do not let yourself think you'll be off-tank. In the realm of casual content, if someone else is MTing, they're very likely to die at any time, so it's a good idea to be 2nd in aggro. Though, be prepared because you may also rip aggro and become MT by default.

If you take aggro, you're doing more damage. To save everyone the trouble, simply put if you're dealing more damage you deserve to be taking the wheel anyways.

[Bright-Flower]

In 8 man stuff provoke/shirk works. In alliance raids where you can't provoke, you can just toggle it a bit early into the fight and then eventually leave it on when the main tank has a healthy lead, so that when the MT goes down it'll go to a tank and not a dps next.

[winsock]

Just keep it off when off tank. Voke and turn on when/if needed.

Keeping it on / turning it on early can cause issues. If you outgear the MT or the MT has problems, you're just going to need to turn it off anyway. If you need to turn it off and you're not paying attn, it could be pretty terrible depending on the fight. Since you've got to pay attn anyway, I'd recommend paying attn for when you need to voke instead of when you need to disable tank stance.

[WhyAmIHere]

Actually Ven is right and you are wrong. 3-5 GCDs after the pull is the perfect time to turn on tank stance. From there you will be second on the hate list for the rest of the fight unless something goes drastically wrong, at which point provoke and shirk are quick stabilisers

Or if you just flat out do more damage as OT.
But then that's what Shirk is for unless mechanics demand it elsewhere.

[Warskull]

You should have your tank stance on. Turning your stank stance off and leaving it off is lazy/bad tanking. All you have to do is start with your tank stance off, then turn it on after a couple of hits, somewhere between 3-6 works great. This gets the main tank a decent lead. Then after your opener shirk the main tank. This should give them a significant lead. If you pass them after all that, you significantly outgear them or they are terrible. In that case you should just be main tanking.

There are fights in this game that have mechanics that specifically target the off tank. The off tank is defined as whoever has the 2nd most agro. If you leave your tank stance off this will be a DPS and they will die.

On top of this, if the main tank dies and you don't have tank stance up, the boss will start going for a DPS. If you are unlucky and the main tank failed a mechanic, they may immediately go into a tank buster before you can provoke and get your tank stance up. So now you have two dead players.

[Kewitt]

If I'm off tanking, which I don't do often, I pop on stance after 1st rotation is done, if I steal hate at this point which often happens out side of savage. I just run with it and assume the other tank clues in. But every now and again I see 3 or 4 vokes in different 24 man raids

[DRKoftheAzure]

To be fair, we now know what happens when enmity combos are removed and people either don't know how to use use shirk, don't want to use Shirk, or hate how much of a hassle it is just to target your co-tank for enmity dump; threads like this are created...

[Makeda]

Actually Ven is right and you are wrong. 3-5 GCDs after the pull is the perfect time to turn on tank stance. From there you will be second on the hate list for the rest of the fight unless something goes drastically wrong, at which point provoke and shirk are quick stabilisers

This seriously depends on the abilities of the two tanks.

I'm in a situation right now where I volunteered to be OT because I'm new to savage raiding in this MMO and presumed I was being paired with a vet tank (turned out my co-tank is new to being level 80). This has resulted in me being 20-iLevels above the MT.

I can turn on tank stance 3-5 minutes into a pull, and rip threat within a few cooldowns, if I'm not careful. Even when I shirk, as soon as it wears off the enmity icon for the boss flips to the red triangle, and I know I have maybe 1-3 GCDs before it's a sqaure.

That said... I've also been in roulette PUGs where I've had someone insist on being maintank, I wait through my initial rotation, turn on tank-stance, and rip threat... and then had that tank 'suicide' and healers refuse to heal me because "OT should never be in tank stance" leading to wipes...
- That happened last week at least, when I was on DRk and paired against a WAR.

I think the best answer to all of this is: just do what it takes to not overcome them on threat, and hope they have what it takes to keep threat without you having to do too much to avoid pulling it... but you then also need to be sure you're high enough up there on threat that you will get it if the other tank goes down, there is some swap move, or adds pop up (as in... at least make sure you turn it on before the adds go active so you can grab them right away).

It's all situational... a simple "always do exactly this" answer is not going to work if you want things to go smooth and drama free.

[Aurelius2625]

To properly answer this question because the first page was full of idiocy and memes:

If you are pulling, have stance on, if not, don't unless the situation requires that both tanks have aggro, as the 1 and 2 aggro slot may be selected for mechanics at times.

If you do not immediately need tank stance on: put it on AFTER the opener.

Contrary to the Epeen crowd, WAR is not the godmode tank and you need AT LEAST until the 4th GCD, your first inner chaos, to have aggro. DRK's burst is too strong, they have a 500 potency spam fest going on with more potency added in with weaving.

PLD has a very weak few GCDs before they start their FoF window or Req window, so they too, need at least until the 4th GCD to be fine before you stance on. GNB is fine, as by the 3rd gcd you should be in your Gnashing Fang (two gcds with BFest weaved after lightning shot and NM after your first or second GCD).

Alternatively, if you NEED both tanks in aggro to take double autos like in Levi Savage, both have stance on, then the one that is the off tank will voke-shirk the other guy, problem solved.

[Aurelius2625]

Not that I am really qualified to weigh in on tank damage or anything, but to generalize things this is how I see it. To start, everyone has their own thing they do when they open up a fight, so it's best to simplify things to place everyone on as much equal footing as possible. The simplest way is to count 6 GCDs, enough to encompass each tanks combos. This does not take into account any usage of oGCD skills, since where and when someone might use them is debatable. It does however take into account things like DoTs or natural stat boost these skills produce.

With all that accounted for here here are the "burst" numbers.

GNB comes in first with a total 2550, from their first and cartridge combos. The continuation aspect of the combo was not counted as that is an oGCD move.

PLD comes in second with 2110, using their two combo enders, as well as at least 2 ticks from the Goring Blade DoT, provided it's used prior to Royal Authority. Even if the the DoT ticks aren't accounted for their total would still be 1940.

WAR is third with 1848, this number provided Storm's Eye is used prior to Storm's Path, to gain the added 10% on the next 3 GCD skills. If this is reversed their total is the lowest at 1760.

DRK is last or third at an even 1800, a "downside" of them only having "one" combo. Sadly they can't benefit from their 10% bonus since its tied to oGCD moves.

Once 6 GCD have passed turning on your tank stance should be acceptable, as enough time and enmity have passed to prevent aggro stealing. If you dont feel comfortable doing that, simply just wait a bit longer.

This is completely the wrong way of doing it. Always factor in the oGCDs, they are bonkers. Tanks to an outrageous amount of potency when you account for the ogcd abilities.

DRK alone has 5x500 potency with JUST edge of shadow alone, Carve is another 450, abyssal, 200, 2x200 for plunge, Shadow is about 2800 potency on its own, Delirium, and ogcd, enables 5 bloodspillers for free, that's 5x600 potency there.

WAR's two Inner Chaos, unlocked through..you guessed it....an ogcd, is 1800 potency ALONE for TWO gcds that are direct crits. Inner release? Another ogcd that enables 5 DHc cleaves at 590 potency each.

PLD: Req buffs HS and enables the use of Confiteor, 4x525 potency and then the 1200 potency finisher, so yeah... you have to factor all of this in.