Tenacity

[ColdGuy]

As has been said, make Determination useless for Tanks, make it a dps only materia.

That way, Tanks still have a choice between balancing Tenacity against Crit/DH, but Tenacity becomes meaningful. Wouldn't even need to change it in any way.
Determination is always the last resort stat for high damage builds anyway.

There is no point in doing that, Determination is already a DPS only stat due to the way that gear is made, since Tank gear has no Direct Hit it means that all our extra materia slots are used on Direct Hit, which means that Determination is a no-go stat for Tanks as is. If you really want to push out damage, you go for damage stats which means Crit -> DH, since all Tank gear doesn't have DH, it means all of it can be filled with DH, so nothing ever goes to Determination.

Now, if you were to choose between Determination or Tenacity, then it's even more notorious that Tenacity IS the better option for Tanks already. To test this on paper I made the following sets of crafted gear:

Determination -> Tenacity: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CDZH
Tenacity -> Determination: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CDZJ

With Determination as our main stat we get an added 17.85% damage, and 6.13% added passive mitigation.
With Tenacity as our main stat we get an added 17.32% damage, and 9.39% added passive mitigation.
(These numbers are from the stat weights done a while back on expansion release)


So as far as Tanks are concerned, 3% additional PASSIVE mitigation is a lot more valuable than 0.5% added damage, specially since Tank damage isn't as high as in other expansions, the trade-off is clear and it's in favor of Tenacity.
EDIT: I should add that the total difference, ON PAPER, is 0.1% DPS being traded for 3% Mitigation.

Anyways the difference between stacking one stat or the other is small as hell, who cares, don't let the stigma get you.

[ForteNightshade]

So as far as Tanks are concerned, 3% additional PASSIVE mitigation is a lot more valuable than 0.5% added damage, specially since Tank damage isn't as high as in other expansions, the trade-off is clear and it's in favor of Tenacity.

Except... it isn't. That extra defense amounts to nothing. Like I said earlier, your healers will follow the exact same healing pattern they have already mapped out regardless of how much Tenacity you stack. This, in turn, makes Tenacity pointless because it does not add anything. Determination is also the wrong comparison to make as only Warrior cares about it. All other tanks want Direct Hit, which pushes the gap between damage and the passive mitigation Tenacity offers even further apart.

Put simply, mitigation needs to be valuable to be considered worthless. If Shiva's autos do 30k to a Determination/Direct Hit melded tank and 2.6k to a Tenacity melded one. Who cares? You'll never even notice it.

[ColdGuy]

Except... it isn't. That extra defense amounts to nothing. Like I said earlier, your healers will follow the exact same healing pattern they have already mapped out regardless of how much Tenacity you stack. This, in turn, makes Tenacity pointless because it does not add anything. Determination is also the wrong comparison to make as only Warrior cares about it. All other tanks want Direct Hit, which pushes the gap between damage and the passive mitigation Tenacity offers even further apart.

Put simply, mitigation needs to be valuable to be considered worthless. If Shiva's autos do 30k to a Determination/Direct Hit melded tank and 2.6k to a Tenacity melded one. Who cares? You'll never even notice it.

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

[ForteNightshade]

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

Then you're mitigation was misplaced. I have cleared TEA and neither tank ran Tenacity. In fact, virtually no tanks use it even for Ultimate. If it were valuable enough to make a difference people would consider it more, especially during Ultimate. They don't. Hence why it's widely considered second rate at most. I have seen the numbers before and it speaks volumes that people still don't remotely consider Tenacity. Why is that? Because the passive mitigation it provides is so minuscule, it isn't worth melding over Determination or Direct Hit. If you prefer to meld it, well, Tenacity is better than nothing. But that's about it.

Saying you can clear any content is a cop out response. I could meld literally nothing and still clear without a single problem. That does not make Tenacity suddenly better nor desirable. The problem remains that until Tenacity provides a more noticeable benefit or Direct Hit is no longer an option for tanks, it simply lacks a purpose beyond being the cautious "feels safer" stat.

[ReiMakoto]

To notice a change in things that are happening, first of all you need to look for the change that was made, second you need to really invest into the stat that's making the difference, if you don't care and don't do the content that really puts every point of side stats you have to the test, then who cares, meld whatever you're told and go.

The difference is always going to be minimal, in percentages, so if you're not interested in discussing very small percentages, there's no point in discussing side stats at all. As far as I'm concerned the difference i saw from doing Tenacity in TEA was that i required 2 less single target heals in P2, where the difference i see right now from using Skillspeed in E7S is that i get to cast 9 more Bloodspillers than the top DRK at the time.

But I'll lend credence to your claim and share the set of gear that maximizes Crit, then a set of gear that maximizes DH:

Crit -> DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0G
DH: https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/1CE0K

Now we see that, in the Crit gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 3.5% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.
And on the purely DH gear, compared to the Tenacity set, we have an increase of 2.7% DPS (in theory), with 3.79% passive damage mitigation.

So taking the Crit set, which should give the most DPS (again, in theory), we have a nice trade off, 3.5% more DPS at the loss of 5.6% passive damage mitigation, that's half a Reprisal except it's permanent.

Another virtue of non-RNG based sources of DPS is that it's more consistent, there's also that. Again, stop with the stigma, the stats are there, they have their uses, and in true spirit of FFXIV, you can resolve all content with any set of gear as long as it's the appropriate iLvl and it has materia in it.

These % mitigation numbers youre quoting for ten arn't exactly right. Thats how much raw its adding however it has to interactive with the multiplicative buff stacking damage formula like everything else. For example of you had enough tenacity that it was adding a raw 3% passive mitiagtion, it would actually provide about 2.4% when stacking it multiplacatively with the passive 20% tanks get from the trait, and its value further decrease the more active mitigation you pop.

[ColdGuy]

Then you're mitigation was misplaced. I have cleared TEA and neither tank ran Tenacity. In fact, virtually no tanks use it even for Ultimate. If it were valuable enough to make a difference people would consider it more, especially during Ultimate. They don't. Hence why it's widely considered second rate at most. I have seen the numbers before and it speaks volumes that people still don't remotely consider Tenacity. Why is that? Because the passive mitigation it provides is so minuscule, it isn't worth melding over Determination or Direct Hit. If you prefer to meld it, well, Tenacity is better than nothing. But that's about it.

Saying you can clear any content is a cop out response. I could meld literally nothing and still clear without a single problem. That does not make Tenacity suddenly better nor desirable. The problem remains that until Tenacity provides a more noticeable benefit or Direct Hit is no longer an option for tanks, it simply lacks a purpose beyond being the cautious "feels safer" stat.

It seems your gripe is mostly with content design then, the reason Tenacity isn't necessary is because content is designed to have certain damage windows, so as long as cooldowns are being used properly you'll never need the extra passive mitigation, which is the reason we are able to go full Crit/DH and still beat all content (i too have cleared TEA with full Crit/DH melds).

I will never claim Tenacity to be better than Crit/DH, since again, player skill will always trump any melds you have, and proper use of CDs is called player skill, however to say Tenacity is undesirable is not right, it might not be desirable to you because you'd rather have the damage output from Crit/DH and rely on your own skill to mitigate damage, however for others it might not be the case, they might choose to play it on the safe side and rely more on damage dealers to do their part, which is completely fine seeing how Tank DPS is for the most part irrelevant at the moment.

These % mitigation numbers youre quoting for ten arn't exactly right. Thats how much raw its adding however it has to interactive with the multiplicative buff stacking damage formula like everything else. For example of you had enough tenacity that it was adding a raw 3% passive mitiagtion, it would actually provide about 2.4% when stacking it multiplacatively with the passive 20% tanks get from the trait, and its value further decrease the more active mitigation you pop.

Yes, i can only compare raw numbers.

You guys seem to be missing the point of the stat, damage mitigation will always be something you use to "play it safe", to give your group more breathing room, specially something that gives passive mitigation, if you're playing at a skill level that doesn't require it, then it simply isn't necessary.

Back when it was Parry materia it could be called worthless, not only did you lose a lot of damage from not melding anything else, you also didn't get much mitigation, so there was no point whatsoever in getting that materia, however that changed going into Tenacity, now you get guaranteed damage and guaranteed mitigation, which is the entire point of the stat, it's working as intended, if it were even slightly better (again, small percentages), it'd just tower over other stats and then we'd be looking at making other stats better.

So the fact remains, want damage? Meld Crit/DH, want mitigation? Meld Tenacity. Who wants to meld damage? Players capable of relying on player skill for mitigation, who wants the extra mitigation? Newer players or those unsure of their ability to mitigate properly. Not everything is for everyone, but the impact that Tenacity CAN have is absolutely undeniable, an additional ~6% passive mitigation is quite good (again, small percentages make for small changes but that's what we're discussing).

[Deceptus]

There is no point in doing that, Determination is already a DPS only stat due to the way that gear is made, since Tank gear has no Direct Hit it means that all our extra materia slots are used on Direct Hit, which means that Determination is a no-go stat for Tanks as is. If you really want to push out damage, you go for damage stats which means Crit -> DH, since all Tank gear doesn't have DH, it means all of it can be filled with DH, so nothing ever goes to Determination.

Unless you're a Warrior and DH is really bad to meld. Or play all 4 tanks so you want to stay away from DH because you play warrior as well.