Delete Clemency and Vercure

[Zeonx]

No thank you, clemency should not be removed.
I'll tell you a story.
My cousin and me were in a party and this white mage decided to just not cure my cousin on his paladin right in the middle of a boss battle, so he's healing the black mage, me and himself with clemency trying to keep us all alive.
He stops after boss battle is done and says, why were you not curing me, he replies because you were being rude, then I said he didn't say one word and he says so and I am not curing till he says sorry, so we had no choice but you kick the white mage.

Then my cousin came over was reading this post and said basically this, he would rather not leave himself in the care of white mages who don't want to or can't do their job as healers doesn't matter if you feel like you can't do your job if you can't do your job from the get go.

He is right there is a such thing as a bad party and what saves that bad party a lot of times is clemency, our party wiped and he was still alive many of times this has happened and we got past the boss because of that healing move, I rather not play a boss 2-3 times because they can't dodge or heal fast enough.

[kaynide]

This kind of post has been up hundreds of times perhaps.

I can’t really understand it. If you play as a healer and you get upset someone else is “stepping” on your territory/wasting time healing when they should be DPSing, all I can say is... really?

If you are so worried about your roulette taking 1-2 minutes longer, you might have a deeper problem. If you can’t stand it because “that’s my job!”, why? Shouldn’t the party be looking out for each other? And if you die to something stupid, you’d rather the party wipe than be able to gimp through a fight without you?

It’s not like either of these jobs regularly have to use these abilities, but they are great to have. Point of fact when my FC does treasure maps, we don’t bring a healer at all. Rdm, 2 Plds and 3 dps is all we need. No healer needed. That’s not to say healers suck, it’s just to say we don’t really need one, and those kind of choices and versatility in party build is something to be encouraged.

[Quintessa]

I don't know about RDMs, but for PLDs, sounds like lack of trust in healers.

IM GONNA KEEP ON DEE PEE ESSING TIL DIS JOKA WITHIN 1 GCD OF DEATH.

[LaylaTsarra]

I use vercure on myself mostly when the healers seem too busy to heal party members and continue to dps. Relative to healing other party members I'll keep a tank up if needed when a healer dies while trying to raise her as well. Personally I chose rdm as my main dps role given the raise and heals and for me that is a healers dps. I enjoy it quite a bit.

I also love being able to heal myself if needed as a pallly and just skipped a pally for this alt so she can have a tank role. Many of my alts have gnb leveled but I wanted pally for her. It's quite fun.

[Crushnight]

My issue with Clemency is it is too powerful atm, I think a 25% reduction in potency would slow it down without invalidating it.

Pld has been the only job that can make me go why am I here as a healer, granted this was under specific circumstances (High Dps, pld popping cds appropriately etc) but for an entire dungeon I didn't heal no aoe heal needed, no ogcd heal used, no gcd heal used, why?, because the pld Clemency everyone including me >_> .

Pld also doesn't give up as much to Clemency compared to Rdm's Vercure, for rdm to fully take healer responsibility they're reduced to Vercure bot giving up most of their dps to do so, Pld just gives up its mp dmg skills, far far less loss for easier survivability.

I don't think a job should be able to invalidate an entire role for any df piece of content, Ramuh Ex used to be no tanked because Smn's Titan-egi could do it, they patched it out for good reason. I don't want Clemency removed it is a useful tool when needed but I do think it can use a nerf to potency(even though the bigger culprit is content design but them changing that is next to 0).

[Enkidoh]

PLD can't keep spamming Clemency over and over though as they'd quickly run out of MP, so it's rather moot. It's the tradeoff for it's potency so we don't overrely on it (yes we can get the MP back with Fast Blade-Riot Blade, Spirits Within and Total Eclipse-Prominience, but it takes a bit to get all that MP consumed back, and doubly so if you've already used Requiscat-Holy Spirit/Holy Circle-Confiteor, so thinking that PLD can completely replace the healer in a party is quite frankly nonsensical.

I don't sit there spamming Clemency to keep my HP up, but I will not hesitate to use it if my HP drops below half for an extended period and the healer hasn't done anything about it (because the lower my HP goes, the greater the chance I die even with buffs, and then you the healer dies, and then the rest of the party dies as well, and you don't want that). I will also not hesitate to heal a party member if they've been ignored by the healer too (it does happen, and I've gotten comendations for doing so).

One aspect of Clemency that no one ever (or rarely) considers is it can also be used to quickly pop Divine Veil on the party at the start, especially if the healer is perfering to hold off healing until you get to critical HP. So if you see a PLD use that at the start, they're not spamming Clemency to play pretend-healer, they're doing that to actually benefit their party and using their abilities how they're meant to be, and thus benefiting you by trying to cut down the damage caused to you and thus the amount of healing you have to do.

So these calls to eliminate Clemency simply because it's powerful come across as very ignorant (to say nothing of Clemency's importance during solo content).

[Veis_Alveare]

This kind of post has been up hundreds of times perhaps.

I can’t really understand it. If you play as a healer and you get upset someone else is “stepping” on your territory/wasting time healing when they should be DPSing, all I can say is... really?

If you are so worried about your roulette taking 1-2 minutes longer, you might have a deeper problem. If you can’t stand it because “that’s my job!”, why? Shouldn’t the party be looking out for each other? And if you die to something stupid, you’d rather the party wipe than be able to gimp through a fight without you?

It’s not like either of these jobs regularly have to use these abilities, but they are great to have. Point of fact when my FC does treasure maps, we don’t bring a healer at all. Rdm, 2 Plds and 3 dps is all we need. No healer needed. That’s not to say healers suck, it’s just to say we don’t really need one, and those kind of choices and versatility in party build is something to be encouraged.

The issue is a combination of these two suggestions.

First off, each healer has an ability which specifically benefits from the target's health dropping. Excog won't pop (at least effectively) unless the target drops below 50%, Essential Dignity (which is like... the majority of tank healing a lot of the time) gains potency the lower the HP of the recipient and Benediction is a full heal which means the greater the difference between a target's max and current HP values the more bang for your buck.

Losing effectiveness on these abilities repeatedly (plus on WHM not having anything to make good use of lilies on) means a PLD/RDM using their GCD heals is literally making using my skills harder, of course I find that irritating.

I'll be honest, I've definitely miscalculated a few times and people have died to what was effectively pointless greed. If that happens to someone and they decide to waste their GCDs in the future on some caution heals I wouldn't begrudge them that in casual content... but when I've given them no reason to actually believe I don't have everything well in hand? No, I'm sorry, it's really irritating at that point.

Why am I, as the role with the least effective dps, doing what I can to contribute to the group while my party members are wasting everyone's time?

Also mostly unrelated but dear god that map comment makes me cringe. I get it, its maps and if those are jobs people enjoy playing more power to them, but in terms of effectiveness it's a big oof.

PLD can't keep spamming Clemency over and over though as they'd quickly run out of MP, so it's rather moot. It's the tradeoff for it's potency so we don't overrely on it (yes we can get the MP back with Fast Blade-Riot Blade, Spirits Within and Total Eclipse-Prominience, but it takes a bit to get all that MP consumed back, and doubly so if you've already used Requiscat-Holy Spirit/Holy Circle-Confiteor, so thinking that PLD can completely replace the healer in a party is quite frankly nonsensical.

I don't sit there spamming Clemency to keep my HP up, but I will not hesitate to use it if my HP drops below half for an extended period and the healer hasn't done anything about it (because the lower my HP goes, the greater the chance I die even with buffs, and then you the healer dies, and then the rest of the party dies as well, and you don't want that). I will also not hesitate to heal a party member if they've been ignored by the healer too (it does happen, and I've gotten comendations for doing so).

One aspect of Clemency that no one ever (or rarely) considers is it can also be used to quickly pop Divine Veil on the party at the start, especially if the healer is perfering to hold off healing until you get to critical HP. So if you see a PLD use that at the start, they're not spamming Clemency to play pretend-healer, they're doing that to actually benefit their party and using their abilities how they're meant to be, and thus benefiting you by trying to cut down the damage caused to you and thus the amount of healing you have to do.

So these calls to eliminate Clemency simply because it's powerful come across as very ignorant (to say nothing of Clemency's importance during solo content).

If you're using clemency on a party member who isn't topped up you're likely wasting your MP and GCDs.

I see this all the time while I'm waiting for a Star to pop or an oGCD to come back around, theres zero harm in someone being below full health as long as the healer knows what's coming. If there isn't an imminent cause of unavoidable damage for that party member there's no reason for them to require healing at that point.

I see this constantly on the very last pull of Grand Cosmos. I just take the AoE cast by the big horse guy add if I'm on SCH or WHM (since I'm in there for Holy/AoW spam) and theres no other damage apart from tank damage so I dont bother healing myself. I've been pointlessly clemecy'd there at least three separate times.

The only hit point that matters is the last one.

[Ammokkx]

A red mage without the ability to heal is just a black mage. Red mage, traditionally, is the jack-of-all-mages.

Paladins throughout the franchise have been able to cast cure, because that's a divine skill. Removing the holyness from them makes them warriors.

Class identity and consistency is important. The fantasy of these two inherently required them to have healing abilities, it's part of why you'd be drawn to the class from an aesthetic standpoint.

This, alone, is more than reason enough to keep the abilities.

[Quintessa]

@Veis - yeah those boss and monster autos will take care of that 1 HP too.

[Insertusernamehere]

When I playing PLD I know when I am going to get tankbuster if healer doing nothing about my 50% HP bar i will heal my self, but I prefer keeping my mana for my magic DPS rotation if healer not sleeping..
If Clemency big problem replace it with "Holy Aurora" or even better "The Brightest Morning" I am totally fine with it