Delete Clemency and Vercure

[Vidu]

Is this a troll thread?

Either way: No, thanks - I'd very much like to keep my Clemency to be able to still clear content even if the healer bites the dust. We actually got our E6 NM clear on tuesday thanks to that - the healers kept dying left and right and in the end (boss at ~7% or so) we had a warrior, a dragoon and my paladin still standing and still made it thanks to clemency.

I get that there are healers out there who have everything under control - but I've seen far more healers who dont and part of the reason I play paladin is that I'm not at their mercy. I'm willing to trust them and only clemency under extreme circumstances, but I'd like to keep doing that - its part of what makes my job fun and engaging to me.
The solution for your problem shouldnt be to take something away from those jobs, but rather to communicate to your party that they can trust your healing and that you have everything under control. A good paladin or RDM wont want to use their healing spells unless in dire need - and with a good healer they wont have to. There are enough moments though that this good healer isnt around - dead, afk, left the party or you outright got someone who lets you die to the last boss of the new dungeon after you trusted that they knew what they were doing...
Another solution for this problem would be to make healers more engaging again - not to take away from other jobs.

They're wrong with not trusting, they don't know which oGCD's the healer has ready. Unless healer let the party get wiped before.

So you're saying yourself that there are situations where someone is right to misstrust their healer - I can assure you that I've been in way more of those situations than I care to be in. On top of those moments where its not misstrusting the healer thats triggering the clemency but simply the healer not being present for one reason or another.

[SamRF]

Is this a troll thread?

Either way: No, thanks - I'd very much like to keep my Clemency to be able to still clear content even if the healer bites the dust. We actually got our E6 NM clear on tuesday thanks to that - the healers kept dying left and right and in the end (boss at ~7% or so) we had a warrior, a dragoon and my paladin still standing and still made it thanks to clemency.

I get that there are healers out there who have everything under control - but I've seen far more healers who dont and part of the reason I play paladin is that I'm not at their mercy. I'm willing to trust them and only clemency under extreme circumstances, but I'd like to keep doing that - its part of what makes my job fun and engaging to me.
The solution for your problem shouldnt be to take something away from those jobs, but rather to communicate to your party that they can trust your healing and that you have everything under control. A good paladin or RDM wont want to use their healing spells unless in dire need - and with a good healer they wont have to. There are enough moments though that this good healer isnt around - dead, afk, left the party or you outright got someone who lets you die to the last boss of the new dungeon after you trusted that they knew what they were doing...
Another solution for this problem would be to make healers more engaging again - not to take away from other jobs.

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

[Vidu]

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

(Even though it feels slightly weird to bring up something from page 3 again this late in thread I wanted to reply to this now that I'm awake again)

There are two things I'd like to say about this - one is an answer to your question, the other one goes more towards the general notion of this thread.

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

[SamRF]

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

By far best reply I've gotten so far, thank you for your insight it sure did change my view on the matter to some extend.

It's just that those 2 abilities seem like the only ones that interfere with another job's optimization while also sacrificing dps. But I'd rather agree that we shouldn't change a job's toolkit because some players use them wrongly. I also really enjoy using those abilities in solo content.