Delete Clemency and Vercure

[Deceptus]

Vercure isn't essential to red mage's identity and clemency doesn't need to be spell or a heal.

RDM's have always been about white and black magic and a healing spell (vercure) has always been a part of their skillset.

[Vidu]

Is this a troll thread?

Either way: No, thanks - I'd very much like to keep my Clemency to be able to still clear content even if the healer bites the dust. We actually got our E6 NM clear on tuesday thanks to that - the healers kept dying left and right and in the end (boss at ~7% or so) we had a warrior, a dragoon and my paladin still standing and still made it thanks to clemency.

I get that there are healers out there who have everything under control - but I've seen far more healers who dont and part of the reason I play paladin is that I'm not at their mercy. I'm willing to trust them and only clemency under extreme circumstances, but I'd like to keep doing that - its part of what makes my job fun and engaging to me.
The solution for your problem shouldnt be to take something away from those jobs, but rather to communicate to your party that they can trust your healing and that you have everything under control. A good paladin or RDM wont want to use their healing spells unless in dire need - and with a good healer they wont have to. There are enough moments though that this good healer isnt around - dead, afk, left the party or you outright got someone who lets you die to the last boss of the new dungeon after you trusted that they knew what they were doing...
Another solution for this problem would be to make healers more engaging again - not to take away from other jobs.

They're wrong with not trusting, they don't know which oGCD's the healer has ready. Unless healer let the party get wiped before.

So you're saying yourself that there are situations where someone is right to misstrust their healer - I can assure you that I've been in way more of those situations than I care to be in. On top of those moments where its not misstrusting the healer thats triggering the clemency but simply the healer not being present for one reason or another.

[SamRF]

Is this a troll thread?

Either way: No, thanks - I'd very much like to keep my Clemency to be able to still clear content even if the healer bites the dust. We actually got our E6 NM clear on tuesday thanks to that - the healers kept dying left and right and in the end (boss at ~7% or so) we had a warrior, a dragoon and my paladin still standing and still made it thanks to clemency.

I get that there are healers out there who have everything under control - but I've seen far more healers who dont and part of the reason I play paladin is that I'm not at their mercy. I'm willing to trust them and only clemency under extreme circumstances, but I'd like to keep doing that - its part of what makes my job fun and engaging to me.
The solution for your problem shouldnt be to take something away from those jobs, but rather to communicate to your party that they can trust your healing and that you have everything under control. A good paladin or RDM wont want to use their healing spells unless in dire need - and with a good healer they wont have to. There are enough moments though that this good healer isnt around - dead, afk, left the party or you outright got someone who lets you die to the last boss of the new dungeon after you trusted that they knew what they were doing...
Another solution for this problem would be to make healers more engaging again - not to take away from other jobs.

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

[Vidu]

I've tried several times to tell players to not use Clemency but they always took offense and started getting defense or didn't respond and continued to use it. My wording was along the lines of "please don't use Clemency" or "you don't need to use Clemency". It's a little confrontational to tell someone to stop using an ability when they didn't ask for advice, so no entirely unreasonable that they react that way I guess. How would you go about asking someone to stop using it? Genuinely asking, cause I could probably use different wording.

(Even though it feels slightly weird to bring up something from page 3 again this late in thread I wanted to reply to this now that I'm awake again)

There are two things I'd like to say about this - one is an answer to your question, the other one goes more towards the general notion of this thread.

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

[SamRF]

Lets start with the answer to your question: I wouldnt do things much different than you do - tell them that they can trust me to keep them alive and that they dont need to cast Clemency/Vercure (I usually try to pair that with a light hearted tone, maybe even in a joking manner so they dont get the impression that I'm trying to criticise them directly. When healing I play as scholar, so most often its something along the lines of "You dont need to use Clemency, Selene and I can keep you up - and if not we'll blame it on the fairy!"). If they still do that, I shrug and be happy that I get to dps more. Considering that it can be an overall dps-gain to have the healer keep dpsing, I dont see a problem here. Its not always an overall dps loss to have a paladin cast Clemency - fair enough, thats different for Vercure, but still.

For my second point I'd like to point out again that a good PLD/RDM will only use those tools if needed (because of healers who are for some reason unable to keep up with the incoming damage, for example because they're dead on the floor). That means that playing with a good healer wont require any additional healing.
If you encounter a healing PLD/RDM in situations where no extra heals were needed, you simply encountered someone who isnt playing their class well. Happens. All the time. Gotta shrug it off, specially since its not making your job harder (unlike the dragoon who manages to stand in all AoEs while still missing all of their positionals). I get that its less satisfying to fully optimise yourself, but thats something you usually can only achieve in a pre-made group in the first place.
And as I mentioned: You'll encounter bad players of every job all the time, including bad healers - and then extra heals are a godsent, allowing parties to still get through content even though their healer managed to somehow die within the first 10 seconds of a fight. Or to support the second healer in 8-man content if their co-healer is useless. Or not having to start a 10 minute fight all over again because both healers went down with the boss at 10%.

Specially Clemency is a way to deal with bad healers or to support struggling ones.
Your way to deal with bad PLD/RDMs is to get over it, notice that they're not doing any actual harm to anyone but their own personal dps - which probably isnt even great to begin with if they're healing without cause - and shrug it off.
Your way to dealing with healers being boring to play is to request that healers get more engaging spells again.

By far best reply I've gotten so far, thank you for your insight it sure did change my view on the matter to some extend.

It's just that those 2 abilities seem like the only ones that interfere with another job's optimization while also sacrificing dps. But I'd rather agree that we shouldn't change a job's toolkit because some players use them wrongly. I also really enjoy using those abilities in solo content.

[Avidria]

I've had enough scary bad healers that if my health starts dipping under 30% consistently, you can freaking bet I'm gonna start casting vercure no matter how "in control" the healer thinks they are. No offense intended. It's just less of a dps loss than eating dirt on the floor.

[Wiccan026]

Sorry this is ridiculous.

I don't like what they did to healers this expansion, the only one playable with any sort of enjoyment is white mage in my opinion, and so I gave up healing due to how I feel and no response to adjusting them. Ever since I made that call I've met way too many of what I consider "bad healers". I tend to not do my correct PAL DPS rotation because I've encountered one too many healers who let me die (while I was cycling my mitigation) because they thought they could heal me soon enough (I can't stand when healers wait until you're about to die to start healing, especially when I tank). So removing clemency would be ridiculous from that front.

Also sometimes, when running 24 mans alone, vercure is the only thing that kept me alive because healers weren't healing me even when I wasn't that far from them.

Sorry this gets a big NO from me.

[Enla]

As a healer main I quite love it when RDM, SMN, or PLD's help me out when things are going pear shaped. I had a Copied Factory run the other day where my co-healer couldn't stay alive for anything, so I had to carry the bulk of the healing while trying to raise them and a couple other people who bit the dust. We had three RDM and a SMN and while I was hard raising people some of them would help chip in with heals and the occasional dualcast raise and it honestly took a lot of stress off of my shoulders. So long as the RDM or PLD isn't sacrificing anything by helping out I really don't care if they do so. My ego isn't so big that I'd take it as some spurious insult either and frankly I question the maturity of anyone who does take it that harshly. So long as the RDM or PLD isn't being rude, who cares?

[WhiteArchmage]

*Opens thread, thinking: "Because it makes me feel bad that RDM and PLDs are trying to help/don't trust my heals?"*

I was not disappointed.

Indeed, while running Eden I've mostly wondered why more RDMs AREN'T using their Verheals? Both healers bit it, you have a raise, use it (Same goes for SMNs that don't seem to know what "Resurrection" is"). And if I overpull as a PLD and have run out of CDs while the healer is struggling, damn right I'll Clemency myself, also if I'm OT and need to use Divine Veil. By the time I tell a healer to use a heal on me I might as well just use Clemency.

As an aside, Red Mages identity is ability to use White and Black Magic, taking away their heals makes them a glorified BLM with extra elements and a sword. And Paladin was codified by their ability to use shields, Cover, and White Magic, so it's pretty much part of the job identity

[Rannie]

As a healer and a rdm, I absolutely disagree with getting rid of vercure and clemency. As a healer I'm fine with them using the heal spells and as a red mage I've saved runs with being able to heal. Once I was on my RedMage running the Grand Cosmos. We were on the final boss fight and the healer died, now that isnt the bad part, while I was trying to raise the healer the fool released... I healed the rest of the fight and we beat it. I even asked the healer why they released and there was no answer... so NO keep in clemency and vercure.