Thread: Revelations from Patch 5.2

Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

I think you are being a bit too rough on them.

Don't blame the Qitari for bowing to the all-powerful-all-knowing Great Seprent of Ronka's opinion that we, the ally of Ronka, should be the ones to choose how they are remembered bar everyone else's opinion.

MSQ

This patch very much felt like set-up for a finale to me, but in a way that I feel makes it much more engaging than 4.2 at the very least. Can't say anything about 3.2 because it flowed straight into 3.3 by the time I joined the game. Revelations wise, having Venat be the Ancient that formed Hydaelyn's heart is a great nod to FFXII, while the fact that Venat (who seems to be female based on the way her model looks) had 12 key accomplices is fine kindling for the fire that is "The Twelve summoned Hydaelyn" theory.

I think it was already suspected that the Echo was an indication for possessing the fragment of an Ancient's soul, but am glad that Elidibus essentially confirmed it with the starshower explanation, but at the same time, he makes it sound as if ALL souls are fragments, rather than some. Maybe other languages clarify it better. As for Amnanesis Anyder, cool Sastasha swing remix.... but oh my that Sahagin Queen was NOT what I expected.

Besides that, I was excited to see the small animations coming out more detailed than they previously were (that kettle pouring water), giving our character more of a character in the indignation they feel regarding Elidibus possessing Ardbert's body, and the general improved cinematography they seem to be employing.

Eden

While the fights were great spectacles, I felt Gaia's introduction could have used a bit more work instead of such a jarring (IMO) entrance. Also about Urianger and Thancreds departure from the story. I understand it, but it was relatively abrupt and out of place. While I'm glad they finished up the entire 'restore the elements by fighting primals' plot, when Ryne said she should play host to Shiva like Ysayle did, I was disappointed that I didn't get given the option to at least point out that it would be a bad idea, regardless of the 'she needs to be independent' thing.

Besides that, we didn't really learn much more about Eden itself, and now have more questions on what Gaia is meant to be as 'Oracle of Darkness' and what the true nature of the Idol of Darkness was meant to be. Urianger said it may have been the fragment of Zodiark's power that exists on the First, but they glossed over it really quickly.

Sorrow of Werlyt

Who put Evangelion/Gundam in my fantasy game? Yoshi-P and the devs, that's who. Regardless, the fight was well-designed (imo) and the whole 'synthetic auracite' used to recreate Nael is
probably gonna be key to the story. Speaking of Nael, how the heck did they get the info regarding Nael deus Darnus? That form should only have been witnessed by the WoL and Alisaie in the Holocharts of the second coil. Is Alisiae a Garlean sleeper agent? Are WE a sleeper agent? (tin foil hat theories, don't pay attention to them). More than likely it just has to do with how the 'synthetic auracite' works in reinterpreting the information given.

Also Gaius and his orphans. Glad we get to see how an enemy who might not necessarily be evil, but is still firmly (atm) opposed to us react to the presence of what they may believe to be their greatest threat... but I also want to question their reactions to finding out their 'father' is fighting against the empire. They served the Empire solely to be useful to him, but now that he's a traitor, they refuse to believe that he may be right for doing so. Then again we did kill their sister in combat (even if she was the aggressor), and it seems from that last cutscene that it appears to be a case of "we're in to deep to go back now". Also the elezen companion of Gaius seems to be the one holding Gaius in check. I wonder what story HE has.

Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

A suggestion.

Interpret it based on what we know of the Ascians. Either choice would work in a normal context from what the Ascians usual MO is for civilizations. The question here is, do you think they'd have the Ronso subjugate the weaker race of the Qitari by force, or have them become indebted to the Ronso by protecting the weaker race from a threat that may or may not have been set up in advance?

Originally Posted by EdwinLi

So anyone else notice about Gaia...

She was constantly having inner monologue towards herself like Squall does in FF8.

Gaia:

To be honest, my first impression was that she was basically being early-game Neku from The World Ends With You. And then I checked online after doing the Eden stuff to see that people were comparing her to Squall instead, and upon consideration it fits too.

Which makes me wonder if Nomura basically has one protagonist archetype he uses over and over again.

Originally Posted by Wyssahtyn

Beast Tribe:

Can't say I'm comfortable with deciding the Qitari's history based off of so little information and such subjective interpretations. And why can't we go talk to the Viis about it? Surely they might have some old story that could provide further insight. All in all it doesn't seem like the Qitari are very good at their job as historians. Surely the logical thing would be to at least wait until all the stelae are excavated before trying to piece together a narrative?

Qitari:

Yeah, same here. We had to make a decision based only on single accounts from father and son, secondhand sources. No corroborating information from anyone, even the stela itself; even if we couldn't access it, we could maybe get some drawings and impressions of it.

I went with the son's interpretation, partly because when we first visited the Viis part of Rak'tika in 5.0 MSQ, we used a symbol proclaiming us as Ronka's allies. The Allagan Empire had no allies, since they simply subjugated every other polity in existence at the time. Therefore, Ronka was at least not as ruthless as the Allagans, and saw the need to at least keep other polities around as allies.

Also, to take a more cynical view, even if the Ronkans had enslaved the Qitari, they probably wouldn't commission (or allow the creation of) a record stating as much. Hagiography would imply they'd portray it as "uplifting the savages", the same way colonialist-apologist arguments in RL do.

But honestly, I'd have much preferred to express the opinion that we do not know, and provide both (or more) interpretations for people who viewed the stelae to decide for themselves.

---

MSQ:

It was kind of amusing that after the relatively chatty Emet-Selch, and the very monologue-y Lahabrea, Elidibus here is just "I'm not going to tell you".

I like that everyone acknowledges how the desire to help others is commendable and should be encouraged, but this time is more iffy entirely because an Ascian is involved, and prior history has proven that Ascians simply will not leave matters well enough alone. We see the effects on the Crystarium foremost, partly because the Crystarium is already full of people who are willing to work together for a better future, as opposed to Eulmore deciding to embrace the status quo under Vauthry, which only recently changed.

It's also kind of odd that apparently Elidibus (as Ardbert) has some sort of psionic dominion over everyone he talks to, since they apparently decided to drop everything and go off adventuring. It's implied that even non-combatants want to go and spread the Good Word as adventurers and Warriors of Light, causing severe manpower shortages in the Crystarium. Surely "helping others" would also include providing logistics support to those on the frontlines?

I personally believe that Elidibus hasn't actually planned out anything concrete other than "create lots of Echo-blessed WoLs", with possible plans for later that he can discard or modify as necessary depending on which leads seem more promising. So he could try to turn the First-WoLs against us, or he could try to inspire several of them to develop Crystals of Light and retry the Brink of Light situation, or he could be DDoSing Hydaelyn, or he could be causing chaos by depriving institutions of manpower and expertise, or he could be doing any or all combinations of the above and more. Improvise, adapt, overcome, and all that.

Ruby Weapon:

Reminder that Gaius adopted and raised Livia, then accepted her wanting to be lovers, albeit apparently in a "my quarters, one hour" sort of casual relationship. And then when Livia died in Castrum Meridianum, Gaius said not one word about her death in his monologues in the Praetorium.

So his apparent concern for his other adopted children rings a little hollow.

I agree with others that it's weird nobody talks about Nero. Gaius should at least acknowledge Nero's part in activating the Ultima Weapon, and Cid should at least mention that Nero owes him money.

Eden, E7N mechanics:

Did anyone else get baited by the birds mechanic? I mean, if there's a flock of white birds, and a flock of black birds, and we're supposed to assign them Light and Darkness, I would assume the white birds represent Light, and the black birds represent Darkness.

So when I see this debuff tooltip:



That states I have an Umbral (Light) Effect, and as it states, damage from umbrally charged (Light) attacks are increased, while damage from astrally charged (Darkness) attacks are decreased. So it implies that I should stand in front of the black birds, since that's Darkness.

But no, it's the other way around: the debuff is dark-coloured (as opposed to the opposite light-coloured debuff), so I have to stand in front of the white birds. Despite the white birds being logically the Light (Umbral) aspect, which the tooltip says I will get more damage from.

So either the white birds are Darkness and black birds are Light (hence being baited), or the tooltip is incorrect (cf the Kelpie back in Skalla before it got patched).

Originally Posted by polyphonica

In alignment with this...

Deleted the rest so to make the post not so big.

Hydealyn

I agree with your points. Of course SE could turn this all around but then that begs the question. How are people able to betray her if she tempers anyone that are either WoL or that she woke up to echo? We have quite a bit of WoL that turned on her and that got power hungry or outright tried to work against her. That does not make sense if she tempers people. Also we have quite a few people on the source with the echo that are not working in any way for a greater good.

In the end I would find it strange if they go with the way that we too are tempered. We already barely have any ways to control our characters but then to know that they have no mind of their own just outright destroys anything about them. Of course they could go the route of "well we as players are basically the "tempering".

We also dont have all information right now. Yes the 14th said no to the initial meeting (or more they said that they did not answer at all) but maybe this is just another red hering. We might not be the one that summoned her but maybe we were still on their side just may not have agreed with the methods...because having a high member just being completely neutral through all of this just feels bad. The only way for it to be acceptable is for them to have another plan..but in the end that plan failed..or maybe Venat never planned to split the source apart since she only talks about keeping Zodiark in check..maybe it was the 14th that found out that the Terminus will happen again as long as creation magic exits as powerful as its right now and kinda snug in the splitting.

Originally Posted by Alleo

...or maybe Venat never planned to split the source apart since she only talks about keeping Zodiark in check...

On that point:

In the group discussion Venat does say -

"We must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren? If so, I see no further reason to demur"

Wouldn't that suggest that they were very much aware of the consequences of summoning and considered the sundering as a highly likely, if not inevitable, consequence that they were willing to accept? For such a statement to then be followed up by the admittance that they were making the monumental decision even though very few agreed with it, doesn't show them in a favourable light right now.

Originally Posted by Scintilla

On that point:

In the group discussion Venat does say -

"We must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren? If so, I see no further reason to demur"

Wouldn't that suggest that they were very much aware of the consequences of summoning and considered the sundering as a highly likely, if not inevitable, consequence that they were willing to accept? For such a statement to then be followed up by the admittance that they were making the monumental decision even though very few agreed with it, doesn't show them in a favourable light right now.

Not necessarily...

The only thing the line implies is that the rebels knew Zodiark's supporters would hate them for summoning Hydaelyn, whose purpose was to shackle their savior (so as to prevent him from devouring the new lives of the world). The exact consequences of (trying to) do so could not have been foreseen; to say they considered the Sundering a likely if not inevitable outcome assumes several points of information.

Further one of the key points of Shadowbringers was heroes being branded villains for going against authority despite the depravity of said authorities (the conflict with Vauthry); to say their actions paint them in a negative light is ignores this.

Originally Posted by Scintilla

On that point:

"We must ask ourselves a simple question: are we prepared to pursue our chosen course, even should it mean suffering the eternal condemnation of our brethren? If so, I see no further reason to demur"

Wouldn't that suggest that they were very much aware of the consequences of summoning and considered the sundering as a highly likely, if not inevitable, consequence that they were willing to accept? For such a statement to then be followed up by the admittance that they were making the monumental decision even though very few agreed with it, doesn't show them in a favourable light right now.

Well we have to see more about this to truly know their plan. I could remember it wrong but in the german version it sound like they believed that Zodiark was too powerful and wanted to create something to keep him in check. This of course could still mean that they have wanted to split him but it could also be an unintended side effect.

Maybe they saw that the the ascians got tempered and feared what would happen. And maybe this was already after the ascians created the plans to sacrifice future life. In that way they are in a favourable light at least to those future people that will live.

But I am curious how it will end.

About Eden

Finally finished the raid and I am still not really liking Gaia. It seems a bit forced how great everything is between her and Ryne and I just shake my head at Ryne taking over Shiva..not only was it strange what she wore but I really did not like seeing Rynes face on Shiva..it just somehow did not fit. But I also did not understand the reason for her to do it..it did not sound right..and can somebody explain to me why ice would bring back plants?

I wonder how they will fill another four fights with what we have left..I guess on of them will be Gaia again, losing her fight to the voice?

Anyway I found the quest afterward bad..NPCs already saying goodbye even though there is no solution right now. They should have done this later when they are truly gone and just show us the goodbye with an echo scene.

Ruby weapon

The fight was nice but I dont really care much for Gaius or his "children" right now. We never got the chance to meet the one that died and the others are mostly unknown too. I do hope that the green one does not die, he seems to be the only one that is not fully behind it..and that also fears that they might not make it out alive.

Also that death threat at the end..does that mean that Gaius is not completely on his own free will here? (Which would make any kind of redemption arc even worse) At least this made the elezen much more interesting.

I also have a hard time feeling for Gaius. Its sad to lose people but many more would have died through his daughters hand. And seeing how we all lost a lot of Scions through his order..yeah not feeling it right now.

Gaia

She seems to draw elements from many VIII characters, but primarily Squall.

Like Squall, she's moody and introverted, but her true feelings come out when the people she cares about are in danger. Squall infamously spends the first two discs of VIII disdainful of Rinoa, but after she falls into a coma at the end of the second disc he finds himself missing her company and goes to insane lengths to revive her. Gaia expresses similar sentiments when she's drowning in darkness during / after fighting the Idol of Darkness - as annoying as she found Ryne and everyone else, she misses their company now that they're not around. She also has a penchant for inner monologues, just like Squall.

Like Rinoa, she's rather spoiled, but has a nastier personality. As the daughter of a Galbadian general Rinoa was afforded luxuries in life until she formed the Timber Owls; as a former free citizen of Eulmore Gaia is also accustomed to the finer things in life but is far more insufferable about it (such as making Thancred carry her luggage and complaining about the accommodations at Mord Souq).

Gaia attributes her dark powers to a "faerie," just like Laguna's explanation for Squall & co. aiding him through Ellone's magic at various points in VIII's story.

One of her lines when first setting foot into the Empty, "Time. It won't wait." echoes one of Ultimecia's dying lines, "Time... it will not wait..."

Gaia... gets better, but we'll see what happens in the final leg of Eden.

Eden

Glad to see I wasn't the only one just a little uncomfortable with the underage Ryne wearing what she was... though to be fair I object less to the Shiva garb, as it's pretty sensible compared to some iterations of the summon, and find her Hydaelyn / Hraesvelgr garbs a little too revealing. The former is, thankfully, pretty sensible sans the plunging neckline that goes down past the navel... but the latter leaves her practically nude save for the Hraesvelgr wrap.

I mean, I know it's not actually Ryne, and it's just a primal using her likeness due to being channeled through her... but still...

Anyway, I agree that Thancred and Urianger leaving the project is more than a little sudden and abrupt, but it's just telegraphing that the Scions (and the MSQ with it) will be moving back to the Source before the final Eden chapter hits in 5.4. Gonna miss everyone there, especially Ryne... but time won't wait and we got a lot to do!

Ruby Weapon

Well, Gundam and Evangelion share a lot of similarities - deliberately so on the part of Evangelion's creators, as it was meant to deconstruct the "super robot" genre. Regardless, the new Weapons' biomechanical nature, souls / memories being infused into the machines, and freaky shit happening when their sync rates get too high is evocative primarily of Evangelion to me... I don't recall any Gundam series where things like those are plot points, but whatever.

Yes, I picked up on the "synthetic auracite" bit. The pilot also seems to struggle against the Darnus personality before it takes control; whether that was part of the plan or not is unknown, but it still doesn't really answer how they were able to get combat data on Nael's deus Darnus form from the Binding Coils. (I will refrain from speculation.)

MSQ

I'm not ready to condemn Hydaelyn for doing what she does just yet. To the best of our knowledge Hydaelyn still only awakens the Echo in times of need, and doesn't force anyone to do anything either. Elidibus is just preying on the vainglorious.

Venat's influence on Hydaelyn's psyche remains unclear.

I'm still not sure who Zenos' new conspirator is. He sounds familiar - it could be Asahi, or someone possessing him. Perhaps that's the missing fourteenth Convocation member and the hints it was actually the Warrior of Light's Ancient self is just a bait and switch? Dunno.

Originally Posted by Cilia

Ruby Weapon

Well, Gundam and Evangelion share a lot of similarities - deliberately so on the part of Evangelion's creators, as it was meant to deconstruct the "super robot" genre. Regardless, the new Weapons' biomechanical nature, souls / memories being infused into the machines, and freaky shit happening when their sync rates get too high is evocative primarily of Evangelion to me... I don't recall any Gundam series where things like those are plot points, but whatever.

Ruby Weapon

Iron-Blooded Orphans had mechs that tapped directly into the pilot's spinal cord, but I don't remember it being taken much farther than that. There might be others, but I'm honestly not much of a Gundam person ("I already get that 'war is bad', so why am I watching this, again?"). I feel like "pilot becomes one with the mech" is a fight I've seen a lot of, but the oldest/most relevant example I can actually place is from Bubblegum Crisis. It must be older than that, though.


I actually got Parasite Eve vibes from the hatching sequence. I half expected people to start bursting into flame.