How do you think Yoshida would react to the following hypothetical regarding parsing?

[QT_Melon]

The Moogle Post Incident is completely separate from the Parsing/ACT issue.


Arthars' issue was more like the inverse Koike incident. And things like what Arthars did are also related to other less popular streamers who have been caught mid-stream about doing a freudian slip or 10.

Koike's incident was more about harassment because parsers weren't even directly involved at that time. So yeah Moogle Post ACTUALLY counts, it made news headlines in gaming publications.

My point earlier is more cultural, and right now the NA is thinking their NA method would work against a culture that generally finds such behavior abhorrent.

[Valorak]

It's not about whether it's allowed, but whether they would choose this of all instances to hand out punishment. Participation wouldn't have to be limited to those that can parse. Those without access to one could have a friend relay the info over outside channels and let them post it in-game. Those players would be at risk just the same despite not using a parser. Do you not see how ridiculous the whole situation is? People try to compare to real-world law, but it would be like something is only illegal if you admit to it. Doesn't matter if it was impossible for you to commit the act, you said you did and that's all the proof needed.

I'm not entirely sure what this protest would accomplish then, aside from showing that it's an unusual circumstance to run into in the real world. That said, FFXIV isn't the real world, nor is it run by a government with the authority to potentially investigate your personal belongings and every other aspect of your life during an investigation.

So if you walk up and say "I am running ACT, here are my logs", then they'll probably just take you at your word and issue a punishment if they think that it's appropriate. Considering the kind of "don't rock the boat" stance that they've always taken on 3rd-party tools, I doubt that they'd be very happy about some sort of demonstration that's meant as a deliberate poke in the eye.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

I mean morally wrong. Planned event or not, those players would still be parsing and unlike most other prohibited activities, parsing has no effect on other players, the game's code or game balance.


In the hypothetical, posting the party's parse in chat would let the average player know about parsing and what knowledge it can provide. There would be no comments about the numbers being bad or good, so the harassment potential can be ignored.

The average player knows what parsing is, it's been around for decades as both a tool for those that want to use it to improve, and as a tool for those that want to be tools. The latter being the main issue- it's a tool that's used more in pugs specifically to be toxic than to be helpful, and there's no way to sugar coat that fact. The only time 'parses as educational' ever comes up is when people are complaining about not being allowed to use them, but as someone who has been playing WoW for over a decade I've not once seen someone use it to try to help others in a pug- they use it to boost their own ego and call others garbage.

What doesn't make sense here is why you want this- you already have parsing tools clearly or your idea wouldn't even be a possibility, and if you can already use the tools it's a pretty hollow 'protest' move you're suggesting. They've made their stance pretty clear- they don't want this sort of thing because it's toxic, which is true. They won't stop you from doing it on your own, so if you are using it solely for yourself and not in a toxic way, they will do nothing about it. It is a win win situation for literally everyone except for the players that intend to use it in a toxic manner.

[QT_Melon]

The average player knows what parsing is, it's been around for decades as both a tool for those that want to use it to improve, and as a tool for those that want to be tools.

What doesn't make sense here is why you want this- you already have parsing tools clearly or your idea wouldn't even be a possibility, and if you can already use the tools it's a pretty hollow 'protest' move you're suggesting. They've made their stance pretty clear- they don't want this sort of thing because it's toxic, which is true. They won't stop you from doing it on your own, so if you are using it solely for yourself and not in a toxic way, they will do nothing about it. It is a win win situation for literally everyone except for the players that intend to use it in a toxic manner.

The problem is it DOES however leave console players who would like a more precise tool to measure their success out in the dust. The closest they CAN get is Stone Sea Sky or the Lawns.

Personally while I would like something for that, I am not against parsing - but I do think a tool that can outlay other problems without it being number specific can be very useful on all platforms.

When I had made the suggestion on an Ask Yoshi thread for PAX for a tool that would help diagnose latency/clipping issues, someone just said "FFXIV Analysis" in which I ROLL my eyes, because it's like people ONLY think this pertains to PC players.

[Gemina]

They just had a chance to flex their muscles with the automated waymark placement. How did that turn out?

We don't know yet. That change isn't coming until tomorrow. If it's just like anything else players overreact about, we will adjust and be just fine.

Which act? Parsing? He already said he's fine with it if you keep it to yourself. You believe the "we can't be sure" excuse about streaming? If an influencer were to make hateful comments, you can bet they would not be invited to the next event.

Which act? The hypothetical proposition you brought up in your OP. And don't twist around Yoshi's words/translations. The act of parsing by itself that just displays numbers, he sees as innocuous. That doesn't mean he is ok with players deliberately violating the ToS, which is exactly what they are doing regardless of the intentions behind the parsers. If he had the power to erase the game of all third party tools, what on this planet makes you think he wouldn't flex that muscle with how vehemently he has expressed that official tools will never make it into the game? What it would take for him to crack down on third party tool users would require infiltration of PCs, and that's illegal. I'm not sure what you're on about with hateful comments and excuses about streaming. Perhaps you're mixing up the comments you're quoting?

[Sebazy]

And don't twist around Yoshi's words/translations.

Maybe it's just me, but it really seems like you're the one projecting your personal opinions onto him here tbh :/

If he had the power to erase the game of all third party tools, what on this planet makes you think he wouldn't flex that muscle with how vehemently he has expressed that official tools will never make it into the game? What it would take for him to crack down on third party tool users would require infiltration of PCs, and that's illegal.

If Yoshi was really dead set against it, he could simply have a GM team watch progression streams and curb stomp teams that are visibly parsing. A week of high profile examples would have a hugely profound impact on people's perception of parser usage. If that wasn't enough, it's simple enough to cross reference log uploaders too, there's a vast amount of ammo in those hills.

But they choose not to do that because they've got parser usage exactly where they want it. Do it, but don't talk about it. In all honesty, given how massive this game's casual community is, the current status quo is the best compromise possible bar perhaps the addition of a discrete method of self only analysis for duties or something like that.

Yoshi tows the line to keep things as they are for good reason. Don't project your feelings onto his actions.

[Packetdancer]

Besides, if they did ban thousands of players then that'd open the door to people asking why they haven't banned the hundreds of players who hang around in Ul'dah on Balmung and Mateus with explicit search info.

I'm guessing that no one—or at least very few people—reports those players? Maybe they just figure someone else will, and so ignore them. Either way, I would be reasonably willing to put down a bet that folks are reporting people they perceive as abusive/rude/toxic a lot more frequently than they report explicit search info. And in general, it seems like the game's moderators are willing to let things slide if they aren't bothering anyone (witness that people parsing for personal use don't seem to be a concern); the corollary to that is that if people don't report that a thing is bothering them, it seems like the game's moderation folks aren't likely to take action.

Also, it gets really hard to write code that can automatically recognize stuff as people get creative in avoiding automated systems. Let's say they want to address the gil sellers who shout their URLs. So they block URLs in shouts, and now you end up without folks able to do things like shout a hunt train Discord link or a Eureka tracker link. Meanwhile, the gil sellers are shouting their URLs with unicode characters replacing chunks of them, and then adding a second shout with '<symbol> = pba' or whatever, so you go back and substitute to get the real URL or search term. A human can follow the context there, but that's a really tricky machine recognition problem.

I'm not surprised they'd rely on human reports before acting on anything.

[ElciaDeiLinus]

The problem is it DOES however leave console players who would like a more precise tool to measure their success out in the dust. The closest they CAN get is Stone Sea Sky or the Lawns.

Personally while I would like something for that, I am not against parsing - but I do think a tool that can outlay other problems without it being number specific can be very useful on all platforms.

When I had made the suggestion on an Ask Yoshi thread for PAX for a tool that would help diagnose latency/clipping issues, someone just said "FFXIV Analysis" in which I ROLL my eyes, because it's like people ONLY think this pertains to PC players.

Personally I don't mind for parsers, but, I don't think Yoshi's concerns regarding how they're generally used is unwarranted. My experience with pugs in FFXIV is a 180 from other games, most notably WoW. Almost entirely positive, a community that doesn't get at each others throats immediately on failure. I did a pug Ramuh Extreme that took the entire allotted time, wiped numerous times, people put in the effort to learn what to do while we were doing it- not one person left, there was no calling each other names. I do an LFR in WoW and the cussing and leaving starts BEFORE the first wipe, I've done dungeons in WoW where half the group leaves because the tank is pulling too many/too few mobs and there's no flexibility from anyone, if someone isn't doing what you want them to it's either kick or afk out.

The general feel I get in FFXIV is they're trying to foster a good community, and it's working, and I'd happily take that over tools that lead to toxicity any day.

That said- it does feel at least people should have tools for self parsing, since there are still required dps/hps for endgame content, and being able to attain such tools on PC and not PS4 definitely would be an advantage. That however is separate from the OP wanting people to put parses in party chat- as there's obviously nothing personal/private about something like that.

[Reinha]

These people want SE to say parsers are fine so they can start showing off their epin without fear of a ban or so they can start harassing people with low numbers and use the excuse that SE says it's fine. The dev team has said many times that it isn't going to happen but these people just won't let up.

That's the first thing that crossed my mind. If all parsers are wanted for is self improvement and real time feedback like a lot of people have said, well quietly using one is not going to get anyone in trouble. There is no need for further acceptance.

[Gemina]

You say this...

Maybe it's just me, but it really seems like you're the one projecting your personal opinions onto him here tbh :/

... and then follow up with this...

But they choose not to do that because they've got parser usage exactly where they want it. Do it, but don't talk about it.

You do understand that if this were true, it would mean that SE condones violation of its own ToS, and that directly goes against not only statements made by Yoshi at the recent live letter, but also SE's obligations to uphold the ToS? Who's projecting onto who here?

Yoshi tows the line to keep things as they are for good reason. Don't project your feelings onto his actions.

Wrong on both accounts. I would ask you to stop projecting ulterior motives onto Yoshi when he has shown very little to be that type of human being. It's outright disrespectful, if I'm to be frank. Now you're getting how I feel. That should be a big difference from how I think.