Discussion about recast timers

[Neptune]

well there's where you are assuming it would happen. it was thought that once people figured out taking down all 4 nails dropped the damage down to a little of nothing you would see everyone jumping on all the nails, but that never happened. you had parties tell everyone they either had to have sentinel or they weren't welcome. they took the path of the least resistance because it was easier to force everyone to have sentinel then it was to make sure their dps was high enough to down the nails. i'm not saying it's right that it happened, but what i am saying is that is still what happened when the dev team did try to design content around that impulse.

you can argue that they took the wrong route to design content around that incorrectly, but you cannot say they did not design the content around it. it may not have had effective results, but they did make an attempt.

I'm not surprised that the knowledge of less damage didn't have any effect on player behavior. All the pros already had Sentinel so that's why nothing changed. Whether someone wipes or not on Hellfire means nothing to a pro. What matters is the goal, which is the drop. The dev team may have put in a mechanic to survive the fight, but they did nothing to stop discrimination. You see what I mean?

It is incentive for players to down all nails. Using MNKs and BLMs mean faster kills. In order to use them you need to make up for the lack of Sentinel. In order to do that you need to down all the nails. Down all nails > MNK/BLM viable. Faster kills. Incentive.

You and I are talking about two different things. An incentive is something the dev team uses to entice the playerbase to act a way that they desire. I'm not talking about Reasons for players to act that don't involve the dev team.

Also, there is no incentive for a faster kill. What is the incentive? To save 3 mins? Who cares about that? What people care about, is the drop rate. That is the only reason people are there in the first place. Is there any achievement for 300 kills in under 5 mins? Well then there would be an incentive. You see what I mean?

[NoctisUmbra]

Also, there is no incentive for a faster kill. What is the incentive? To save 3 mins? Who cares about that? What people care about, is the drop rate. That is the only reason people are there in the first place. Is there any achievement for 300 kills in under 5 mins? Well then there would be an incentive. You see what I mean?

Besides the speedrun achievement, faster kills mean more kills in less time. Apply that to a static drop rate. The more you kill him, the more opportunities you have for a drop.

Sure, it's not a direct increase to drop rate - but to be honest if they did incorporate means to increase drop rates on them then I wouldn't expect it to be something as trivial as downing all the nails. Something more challenging and relevant, like a series of incaps, a specific kind of kill or something would make more sense and be more engaging.

If the fight needs incentive in any way, it's not for downing all the nails... cuz honestly, who cares? How many you down is up to your party and what suits them better and/or if they are capable of accomplishing it. It's not a difficult task at all, nor is it very relevant.

[Neptune]

Dude, it's relevant because someone brought up why people need to have Sentinel equipped.

[NoctisUmbra]

In that case it comes right back full circle to my point: to avoid having to bring down all the nails.

The fight never required Sentinel. It required a well-coordinated party to bring down all the nails to minimize Hellfire's damage. That's the clear and obvious design. A primal fight absolutely requiring a skill from a class to clear it would be absurd design.

Yet, as darkstarpoet put it before me, the community sets the status quo and this is not something the devs can always predict. Even in the community, it's not like this stuff happens in a planned or even controlled environment. The first teams to usually clear new content are decked out hardcore players. These are players that for the most part have every battle class leveled and are fully prepared for anything and everything.

So when they go into a fight like Ifrit, they don't have the coordination built yet to down all the nails. Anyone who had Sentinel, always had it on their bar. It's an amazing defensive buff for when shit hits the fan. So when they see Ifrit jump for Hellfire, they buff up. Of course they notice they survive with even only 1 nail down, so they have no further incentive to do this at that time. Keyword here is they. That team. The team that is made up of 8 players all with Sentinel. It works for them, they clear the content, they post their strat and everyone copies. Monkey see, monkey do. Very basic human behavior.

These guys accomplished what I wanted to accomplish. They did it like this. I will emulate them as an attempt to recreate their success.

This is the mentality that drives all the copying and the class-stacking and worst of all the idea that if you are not on specific class/jobs, then the fight is lost and not worth attempting.

Back when there were classes ad no jobs, everyone could potentially equip Sentinel. Having Sentinel made Hellfire nothing so long as even 1 nail went down. Bringing 1 nail down only gave people ample time to buff up and be prepared and required next to no effort. With a party full of Sentinels, it's the preferred method. If enough people in party don't have it, they could still coordinate a strat to bring down all the nails. You say this isn't incentive. Ask the person during 1.19 that didn't yet have Sentinel. Ask him if surviving Hellfire wasn't incentive enough to bring down all the nails. It was easier to ask for people with Sentinel. The hardcore crowd all had it after all, naturally.

Now we're here at 1.21, where with jobs having Sentinel equipped isn't dependent only on if you have GLA levelled or not. Jobs. They are better at what they do. There is massive incentive to use jobs in Ifrit - especially ones who, in a funny twist of fate, cannot equip Sentinel. MNK, BLM, BRD are very noticeable boons to an Ifrit party as DPS. None can equip Sentinel. So to use these jobs, you need to down I believe at least 3 of the nails. Downing all of them is greatly preferred for survival. Is there incentive to use jobs? Yes. Same reason there was incentive to stack LNCs and then THMs before them: smoother and quicker kills. Since there's incentive to use jobs, and the use of jobs requires bringing down more nails, then in turn there is incentive to bring down more nails.

I don't even have to argue it. Before 1.21 I doubt very many parties at all ever bothered downing all nails. If they did, they never even considered it their primary strat but rather something to try out. Now it's a regular thing.

[Ryans]

Just going to add my two cents into the conversation about sentinel in the ifrit fight.

I have done the fight probably 50 times since 1.21, all of them as blm, and have not died once to Hellfire. So the whole argument seems fairly pointless considering the job with the least HP can survive with only one nail down.

[NoctisUmbra]

O

Just going to add my two cents into the conversation about sentinel in the ifrit fight.

I have done the fight probably 50 times since 1.21, all of them as blm, and have not died once to Hellfire. So the whole argument seems fairly pointless considering the job with the least HP can survive with only one nail down.

Sanguine Rite? I will admit I forgot about that on BLM. Still leaves MNK and BRD.

[RedAffinity]

I actually appreciate the limitations set by the recast timer.

You have to actually appreciate the armory system. For all the flaws this game had, adapting to XI's 1Account multiple Job/Class was a flawless take, adding the simplicity and convenience to weapon defining your class. With this kind of great flexibility comes a bit of drawback and that's purely for preventing abuse of certain abilities. I think it's perfectly reasonable when looking at the picture as a whole.

Although OP has some great points.

[Kafeen]

Use Benediction. Change to weaver. Change back to WHM.

So the simple solution here would be to remember the recast timers even when you aren't on that job. That would stop people from changing jobs to refresh recast timers but still allow us to use abilities that we haven't used recently just after changing job.

[Ryans]

O

Sanguine Rite? I will admit I forgot about that on BLM. Still leaves MNK and BRD.

I don't know about mnk but bard can survive with just stoneskin, seen it many times.

[darkstarpoet1]

Just going to add my two cents into the conversation about sentinel in the ifrit fight.

I have done the fight probably 50 times since 1.21, all of them as blm, and have not died once to Hellfire. So the whole argument seems fairly pointless considering the job with the least HP can survive with only one nail down.

but you bring back the original point. you are pointing out they can survive with only nail down using an ability. the devs put up nails that when taken down cuts the damage dealt drastically and that's what their intention was. people took the path of least resistance and figured out what abilities could be used to negate damage so they could take down the minimum and survive. the best method is take down all 4 nails and then nothing is needed to survive hellfire, but it's easier to take down 1 and then buff and use the abilities and be in a certain spot when it goes off.