Discussion about recast timers

[darkstarpoet1]

Another great point. Although in FFXI jobs didn't share 2 hour timers. Whether they're shared 15 mins or "remembered" 15 mins, both would be a lot better than what we have now. I wouldn't consider it "abuse" if you can multi-class your way out of situations with 15 minute abilities. How long did it take to level all those classes to 50, unlock the jobs, do the quests, etc? Is it appropriate to think of all that hard work as not justifying some kind of reward, like the use of all of your abilities?

well as someone with all 50's it would be beneficial for me if they made that change. the reason i am against it is the abuse that could come from it and the parties made up of only people with all 50's. i was looking at the long term for the game by going against what would benefit me. if it could lead to situations in which people with only 1 r50 class gets left out of parties because they can't change on the fly then it would hurt the game in the long term.

[Neptune]

Because of your "Good Samaritan" example.



How many games let you change your job on one character to begin with? There are probably only a handful of them, FFXI being the most recognized, at least within this community.

Consider the same situation in FFXI. You would have to return to your mog house, change job, return to the dead person, raise, return to mog house, change back to the job you were playing, then continue on your way again. Not only does it take you the same amount of time, or perhaps even longer to raise this person, but you'll also likely use a warp cudgel and an OP warp / teleport.

Of the few games that allow multiple jobs/classes per character, how many let you change your job right on the spot? None that I can think of. So, would you rather

A. Do all of those steps above (which probably takes even longer than 5 minutes).

or

B. Change your job right on the spot and just wait for 5 minutes for the recast timer to reset?

Don't get me wrong. I'm not a big fan of recast timers either, especially on weapon skills. But, with the way the game is designed, something's gotta give. Fresh recast timers on job changes "fit" with the armory system. The only thing I would change is to have our 15 min skills share 1 timer (like 2 hours in FFXI).

I love this post. Because I think everything you said is so disappointingly thought-through. I read this, and I think to myself, why the hell are you thinking this way Meowy Wowie? I expect you to want more for yourself and expect more out of the games you play. You said "something's gotta give" and I think it is your.. self-worth? that needs to improve. I wonder if you have asked yourself if comparing the class system of FFXI and FFXIV is worthwhile.. as if they are written in stone. Why would you think this way? I want you to imagine a game in where the Good Samaritan can raise someone by switching to another class and instantly casting raise.. tell me why you don't want that game.

well as someone with all 50's it would be beneficial for me if they made that change. the reason i am against it is the abuse that could come from it and the parties made up of only people with all 50's. i was looking at the long term for the game by going against what would benefit me. if it could lead to situations in which people with only 1 r50 class gets left out of parties because they can't change on the fly then it would hurt the game in the long term.

Quite honestly the only way to prevent "abuse" is to give players incentives to treat each other good. If you don't have Sentinel you're kind of screwed in Ifrit / Moogle. The dev team hasn't done anything to give players any kind of incentive to kill all 4 nails in Ifrit to prevent requiring people to have Sentinel. Imagine if downing the 4 nails increased the drop rate. Suddenly you would never need Sentinel. By my assessment, it's the dev team, not the player's, that have the final say in how people with 1 class get treated while playing their game.

[NoctisUmbra]

Incentive to down all nails in Ifrit? Being able to use jobs that don't have sentinel, such as BLM and MNK that have DPS that will greatly benefit he fight as well as a BRD.

[darkstarpoet1]

If you don't have Sentinel you're kind of screwed in Ifrit / Moogle. The dev team hasn't done anything to give players any kind of incentive to kill all 4 nails in Ifrit to prevent requiring people to have Sentinel. Imagine if downing the 4 nails increased the drop rate. Suddenly you would never need Sentinel. By my assessment, it's the dev team, not the player's, that have the final say in how people with 1 class get treated while playing their game.

this is the problem with human nature. they could make it to where everyone didn't need sentinel just like there already is. if you take down more nails you take less damage so someone without sentinel could survive hellfire just fine. the problem is people take the path of least resistance so they found out that by using sentinel they could get the same results for less work. now with sentinel you can survive hellfire and taking down 2 nails just as easily as you can without sentinel and taking down 4.

the more changes they make the more people are going to look for an easy way workaround. they hunt for the easiest methods to do things instead of doing the content the way it was meant to be played. if not you would see parties all the time running one of every class/job, but instead you see parties of 5 thm/blm, arc, or lnc and whatever class/job you stack that makes the content the easiest.

[Neptune]

Incentive to down all nails in Ifrit? Being able to use jobs that don't have sentinel, such as BLM and MNK that have DPS that will greatly benefit he fight as well as a BRD.

I meant an incentive for players to down all nails. You described the benefits of downing the nails. That is different from some kind of universally applicable incentive.

this is the problem with human nature. they could make it to where everyone didn't need sentinel just like there already is. if you take down more nails you take less damage so someone without sentinel could survive hellfire just fine. the problem is people take the path of least resistance so they found out that by using sentinel they could get the same results for less work. now with sentinel you can survive hellfire and taking down 2 nails just as easily as you can without sentinel and taking down 4.

the more changes they make the more people are going to look for an easy way workaround. they hunt for the easiest methods to do things instead of doing the content the way it was meant to be played. if not you would see parties all the time running one of every class/job, but instead you see parties of 5 thm/blm, arc, or lnc and whatever class/job you stack that makes the content the easiest.

Well, it is human nature at its finest. The real problem isn't human nature though, it's the expectation that human nature will somehow fail to manifest because of some magical reason. People are lazy bastards. It's an established fact. The dev team should design AROUND that established fact. If killing all 4 nails equaled even a 1% drop rate increase you would see so many monks in ifrit.

[darkstarpoet1]

I meant an incentive for players to down all nails. You described the benefits of downing the nails. That is different from some kind of universally applicable incentive.



Well, it is human nature at its finest. The real problem isn't human nature though, it's the expectation that human nature will somehow fail to manifest because of some magical reason. People are lazy bastards. It's an established fact. The dev team should design AROUND that established fact. If killing all 4 nails equaled even a 1% drop rate increase you would see so many monks in ifrit.

well there's where you are assuming it would happen. it was thought that once people figured out taking down all 4 nails dropped the damage down to a little of nothing you would see everyone jumping on all the nails, but that never happened. you had parties tell everyone they either had to have sentinel or they weren't welcome. they took the path of the least resistance because it was easier to force everyone to have sentinel then it was to make sure their dps was high enough to down the nails. i'm not saying it's right that it happened, but what i am saying is that is still what happened when the dev team did try to design content around that impulse.

you can argue that they took the wrong route to design content around that incorrectly, but you cannot say they did not design the content around it. it may not have had effective results, but they did make an attempt.

[Coglin]

personally i think sentinal is a bit overrated at this point with the other tools we have. Battle voice for example, gives a great HP buff for survivability, reguardless of how many nails you destroy. It seems to me in my last few ifrit battles, the rest of the group preferes my ability as a bard to buff there MP regen and TP regen over the servivability of sentinal anyday.

[NoctisUmbra]

I meant an incentive for players to down all nails. You described the benefits of downing the nails. That is different from some kind of universally applicable incentive.

It is incentive for players to down all nails. Using MNKs and BLMs mean faster kills. In order to use them you need to make up for the lack of Sentinel. In order to do that you need to down all the nails. Down all nails > MNK/BLM viable. Faster kills. Incentive.

[darkstarpoet1]

personally i think sentinal is a bit overrated at this point with the other tools we have. Battle voice for example, gives a great HP buff for survivability, reguardless of how many nails you destroy. It seems to me in my last few ifrit battles, the rest of the group preferes my ability as a bard to buff there MP regen and TP regen over the servivability of sentinal anyday.

it is. i was just using an example of what people did to bypass the design of killing all the nails originally.

[Platinumstorm]

There's no reason timers would have to reset for changing into a crafter, but I understand it if you change battle classes.