Dark Knight moving forward: Job change ideas for 6.0

[TouchandFeel]

This is basically an evolution of the thread I posted a while back right after 5.0 launched, expressing my feelings on DRK and what changes I would like to see. (HERE)


Seeing as how any major changes are pretty unlikely to happen to DRK for the rest of this expansion, I started to think of how DRK could evolve, as well as some retroactive alterations, going into the next expansion.

Keep in mind a few things when reading over the ideas presented.
First is that while some stuff would appear to make DRK too powerful, these changes would be with the new expansion where all the other tanks will get new stuff to make them more powerful as well.
Also, this is a rudimentary first pass where it is more about getting the conceptual stuff outlined. Numbers are open to change and can always be tweaked.

Now onto the substance of the post.

Below is the initial set of proposed ideas

First I'll cover the smaller retroactive (pre-lvl.80) stuff, being mainly tweaks and removals:

- Salted Earth is removed. This ability has been watered-down so much that it is a no-brainer for the inevitable ability culling that happens with a new expansion.

- The Enhanced Plunge trait is removed, having Plunge be able to have charges straight from the get-go like all the other tanks. This frees up the lvl.78 trait slot.

- Stalwart Soul is moved from lvl.72 to the now open spot of lvl.52, lining it up with the other tanks getting their AoE second combo ability better.

- Unleash, Stalwart Soul and Unmend are changed from spells to weaponskills like every other tank. Them being spells makes no sense and conflicts with tanks stats.

- Living Dead has the death penalty removed from it, however the cancellation of the Walking Dead effect when 100% healing has been received stays. So now you won't immediately drop dead due to an absent minded healer but require some coordination so that Walking Dead doesn't get cancelled too early.

- Dark Mind is changed to split it between magic damage and all damage (reduces magic vulnerability by 10% and all damage by 10%), making it approximately the same effectiveness in magic damage scenarios but having it have a bit of use in physical damage scenarios, sort of like the opposite side of the coin from Camouflage.

- Carve and Spit is altered to make it's use more frequent. Also, the direct damage is overall slightly reduced but the mp gain stays the same to balance out.
Recast changed from 60s to 45s, potency changed from 450 to 300, and mp gain stays at 600mp.

Now the bigger impact retroactive changes:

- At lvl.72 you get the Enhanced Dark Arts trait. It allows for the Dark Arts gauge to hold 2 usages of Dark Arts and all attacks that consume a Dark Arts are a Direct-Critical Hit.

- At lvl.78 you get the Enhanced Shadow Wall trait, adding the additional effect to Shadow Wall of restoring a small amount of MP when you suffer physical damage. This basically adds a slight Blood Price like effect to Shadow Wall, giving it a little something unique similar to the damage dealt by Vengeance.

- The big one, Delirium is completely reworked.
The recast is still 90s, the duration is increased to 12s due to a drastic change in the organization of attacks during the window.
It now fills the Dark Arts gauge and 50 Blood is generated when a Dark Arts is consumed.
So instead of guaranteeing 5 Bloodspillers/Quietuses without cost that you fit Edges/Floods between, it gives you at minimum 2 DHCrit Edges/Floods and 2 Bloodspillers/Quietuses without cost with the potential of more free Bloodspillers/Quietuses if you plan out and line things up right, for example pre-casting a TBN to break during the window to get another Dark Art.
Basically, if executed properly it results in something similar to what we have now with the quick succession of back-to-back Bloodspiller/Quietus and Edge/Flood usage, you just mentally approach it differently.

Finally the new stuff post lvl.80

- At lvl.82 you gain the new ability Dark Provision.
It's an instacast ability with a recast of 45s, has an MP cost of 3000, and generates one Dark Art.
Essentially every 45s it allows you to preemptively turn your next Edge/Flood into a DHCrit. It also synchronizes with Delirium to allow you to potentially generate another Dark Art during its duration window.

- At lvl 84 *insert new trait here* <- I'll get back to this one and update when I think of something.

- At lvl.86 you get the new weaponskill Drain Blade. Recast of 60s. Delivers an attack of 200 potency with the additional effects of damage over time with a potency of 200 and a heal over time potency of 200 for 12s.
Basically a mash-up of Scourge and Sonic Break but with some self-healing.

- At lvl.88 *insert new trait here* <- I'll get back to this one and update when I think of something.

- At lvl.90 you get the new ability Nightfall.
It's an instacast ability with a recast of 90s, and deals damage to all enemies in an 8y cone in front of you for 800 potency. Requires and consumes a Dark Art on usage.
Basically this is sort of a Confiteor-like ability that would replace an Edge/Flood usage every 90s. Conceptually I see the ability looking like Cloud's Meteorain limit break but instead of meteors it has large orbs of darkness.

Here is a set of alternative ideas based on feedback in this thread

Minor changes, fixes and ability removals pre-lvl.80

- Salted Earth is removed. This ability has been watered-down so much that it is a no-brainer for the inevitable ability culling that happens with a new expansion.

- The Enhanced Plunge trait is removed, having Plunge be able to have charges straight from the get-go like all the other tanks. This frees up the lvl.78 trait slot.

- Stalwart Soul is moved from lvl.72 to the now open spot of lvl.52, lining it up with the other tanks getting their AoE second combo ability better.

- Unleash, Stalwart Soul and Unmend are changed from spells to weaponskills like every other tank. Them being spells makes no sense and conflicts with tanks stats.

- Living Dead has the death penalty removed from it, however the cancellation of the Walking Dead effect when 100% healing has been received stays. So now you won't immediately drop dead due to an absent minded healer but require some coordination so that Walking Dead doesn't get cancelled too early.

- Dark Mind is changed to split it between magic damage and all damage (reduces magic vulnerability by 10% and all damage by 10%), making it approximately the same effectiveness in magic damage scenarios but having it have a bit of use in physical damage scenarios, sort of like the opposite side of the coin from Camouflage.

- Blood Weapon needs to be looked at to determine why it doesn't comfortably fit 5 gcds in it like other similar abilities such as Inner Release.

- Just a visual "QoL" change, but I would love to see Delirium have it's visual and sound fx changed from what we currently have, which I find to be too subtle to notice at all in combat, to the old Dark Arts "charge up" fx with the blue lightning. It would lend it some much needed impact and "cool factor".

Now the bigger impact retroactive changes:

- At lvl.72 you gain the trait Enhanced Carve and Spit which reduces the Carve and Spit recast time by 5 seconds upon landing Bloodspiller or Quietus on most targets. This is in lieu of just straight-up reducing the Carve and Spit recast time, making it something more interactive and dynamic while achieving relatively the same result of more frequent Carve and Spit usage.

- At lvl.78 you get the Enhanced Shadow Wall trait, adding the additional effect to Shadow Wall of restoring a small amount of MP when you suffer physical damage. This basically adds a slight Blood Price like effect to Shadow Wall, giving it a little something unique similar to the damage dealt by Vengeance.

- Abyssal Drain would get the changes proposed in my previous thread. Below are these changes.
+ Recast reduced to 30s instead of 60s.
+ Damage potency reduced to 100 from 200.
+ Cure potency reduced to 100 from 200.
+ Abyssal Drain now also applies a damage over time effect to enemies for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total per enemy).
+ Abyssal Drain now also applies a healing over time effect to self for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total)(applied on ability use and not per enemy hit).
+ *UPDATE* Potentially lower Soul Eater cure potency to 250 if changes to AD seem unbalanced.
+ *UPDATE 2* Allow Abyssal Drain to hold 2 charges so you can store uses for better burst healing.
+ * In single-target this would equate to 600 potency of damage and cures every 60s vs. the 400pot damage and 200pot cure of current AD + Salted. At 2 enemies it would be 1200pot damage and 800pot healing vs. 800pot damage and 400pot healing. 3 enemies, 1800pot damage and 1000pot healing vs. 1200pot damage and 600pot heal. Basically being a consistent 50% damage and 400 cure potency boost, no matter the # of enemies compared to the current AD and Salted, which tbh are a tad underwhelming as they are and make up very little of DRK's overall dps.

Finally the new stuff post lvl.80 which drastically changes up their Delirium burst window.

- At lvl.82 you gain the trait Enhanced Delirium that grants 2 stacks of Dark Will for a duration of 10s.
You also gain the weaponskill Dark Torrent.
+ Deals 200 potency to all enemies in a 5y radius from the player.
+ Combo Action: Quietus
+ Combo Potency: 300
+ Combo Bonus *(after trait): Grants a Dark Arts
+ Can only be executed while under the effect of Dark Will. Consumes 1 stack of Dark Will on use.

- At lvl 84 you get the Enhanced Dark Arts trait. It allows for the Dark Arts gauge to hold 2 usages of Dark Arts.

- At lvl.86 you gain the weaponskill Dark Guillotine.
+ Deals 550 potency to target in melee range.
+ Combo Action: Bloodspiller
+ Combo Potency: 850
+ Combo Bonus *(after trait): Grants a Dark Arts
+ Can only be executed while under the effect of Dark Will. Consumes 1 stack of Dark Will on use.

- At lvl.88 you gain the trait Deepening Darkness which bestows a Dark Arts when Dark Torrent or Dark Guillotine is used in a combo.

- At lvl.90 you gain the trait Master of the Abyss which provides the following:
+ While under the effect of Dark Arts, Edge of Shadow is upgraded to Edge of the Abyss and Flood of Shadow is upgraded to Flood of the Abyss.
+ Edge of the Abyss:650 potency
+ Flood of the Abyss: 350 potency
+ Both have "upgraded" fx to denote being more powerful.

Overall, the changes are intended to play off of some of the stuff that was put into place with the ShB rework, while trying to push DRK into a different direction from the other tanks. I also tried to touch on and address some of the most commonly brought up problem points with the job.

Anyways, I hope people enjoy reading and politely debating about these proposed ideas and while it may seem a tad early to start discussing the direction a job may go in an expansion that is a bit off, but better to sow the seeds early in players' and hopefully the devs' minds.

[shao32]

this is so sad if we have to look for 6.0 and do nothing but pray for them listening and offering us a proper DRK desing to probably complety miss the mark and do whatever they want.

back on topic while not bad you proposal don't solve important problems, i mean DRK will be still a 1 combo fest now with that new scourge every 60s, darkside gauge and mechanic is still useless gameplay wise and living shadow have no interaction/sinergy with anything making 2/3 of the gauge still being complety useless.

salted earth can die for me but on the other side i don't want more unique skills being removed and i belive dark mind will be too busted due his recast and need at least being put on the 90s with camouflage and thrill of battle. blood weapon still remain being a problem and delirium... well delirium could be removed at this point to be honest but i will keep the topic, sounds nice but still to spamy, i will love if recover his sinergy with blood weapon instead of being a burst every 90s anything that make DRK being more active and don't spend 40s doing nithing except 123 combo like now, it would be nice if becomes a combo finisher and bring back the old heavensward combo system of DRK to bring the much need it GCD variety.

abysal drain could get a recast reduction too and the aoe rotation need a complete rework, it was perfect in SB and would kill to bring it back with less self heals if thats a problem or limited selfheals under certain buff so it's more controled or whatever.

and for the love of god bring back shadow skin.

[Danelo]

I like all of the changes pre-lvl 80. I still think the change to AD outlined in your previous post is necessary; When the loss of soul survivor is added to the mix it seems especially important to revisit AD. That being said, I’m not a fan of the dark arts DHCrits mechanics. I’d much rather the potencies be factored into the build in other places - maybe scourge?

Delirium... I’d be more willing to go down the road (not exactly) of continuation than IR. And if warrior gets a rework away from internal release and DRK gets stuck with it next expansion I will loss my shit. Please don’t do it SE.

[jetfire117]

I like most of the stuff we got, but it just needs more improvement. Would be cool to have a way to make Fray last longer so it's something to always upkeep and be cool at the same time.

If we want another combo path, we have to figure out what it can be used for. Our damage buff is already tied to our two new oGCDs so what would a second combo be used for? I wouldn't mind if we just got our dot back. The combo paths we had in HW were perfect because you just went into syphon strike>delirium when you didn't have enough mana to dark arts soul eater (I miss it so much).

To be honest, I just want more buttons to press. HW was fun and chaotic, SB was repetitive, Shadowbringers is fun for the opener, but then just becomes a slow slog afterward.

[Danelo]

I like most of the stuff we got, but it just needs more improvement. Would be cool to have a way to make Fray last longer so it's something to always upkeep and be cool at the same time.

If we want another combo path, we have to figure out what it can be used for. Our damage buff is already tied to our two new oGCDs so what would a second combo be used for? I wouldn't mind if we just got our dot back. The combo paths we had in HW were perfect because you just went into syphon strike>delirium when you didn't have enough mana to dark arts soul eater (I miss it so much).

To be honest, I just want more buttons to press. HW was fun and chaotic, SB was repetitive, Shadowbringers is fun for the opener, but then just becomes a slow slog afterward.

I know it’s off topic but if I could get some QoL for this expansion... hammer out what want to do with bw. I’m really confused by how difficult the 5gcd is to get to for BW. Is SE telling me they envisioned DRK to be a skill speed build? If that’s the case then make the aoes wpn skills instead of spells so they can benefit otherwise it’s an unfair gimp specific to DRK. If a skill speed DRK build was not the preplanned direction then allow for bw to get to the 5th gcd no matter Where in the ogcd it is used. Seems an easy fix.

I love the idea for abyssal drain put forth by the op in the previous posting. Kill salted earth. The macro doesn’t go off half the time no matter how I write it anyway. DRK has good mitigation, outside of being the only class that has a damage specific cd (non aoe), but it’s self sustain kit is crap outside of one use on a Wall to wall pull. And that 1 ad is all your getting since the recast is so long. If you get it back you might as well hold it till the next round since you need at least 6 to be on par with the other 1200 pot heals. Leave the heal on soul eater as is. It’s so subtle anyway.

Fix LD as mentioned above.

Those three things aren’t game breaking and I will be a satisfied customer this expansion.

[TouchandFeel]

Thank you for the feedback so far.

I have updated the initial post with an alternative set of ideas that adjust for the feedback presented, such not doing auto-DHCrits with Dark Arts and instead having "upgraded" edges and floods with Dark Arts sort of like a mixture of the old system and the new system.
Delirium is also completely different, leaving it as is up to lvl.80 but then layering in additions to it from lvl.81-90 that drastically change how the Delirium burst window plays.

For ease of seeing these alternative ideas, they are included below in addition to the initial post.

Minor changes, fixes and ability removals pre-lvl.80

- Salted Earth is removed. This ability has been watered-down so much that it is a no-brainer for the inevitable ability culling that happens with a new expansion.

- The Enhanced Plunge trait is removed, having Plunge be able to have charges straight from the get-go like all the other tanks. This frees up the lvl.78 trait slot.

- Stalwart Soul is moved from lvl.72 to the now open spot of lvl.52, lining it up with the other tanks getting their AoE second combo ability better.

- Unleash, Stalwart Soul and Unmend are changed from spells to weaponskills like every other tank. Them being spells makes no sense and conflicts with tanks stats.

- Living Dead has the death penalty removed from it, however the cancellation of the Walking Dead effect when 100% healing has been received stays. So now you won't immediately drop dead due to an absent minded healer but require some coordination so that Walking Dead doesn't get cancelled too early.

- Dark Mind is changed to split it between magic damage and all damage (reduces magic vulnerability by 10% and all damage by 10%), making it approximately the same effectiveness in magic damage scenarios but having it have a bit of use in physical damage scenarios, sort of like the opposite side of the coin from Camouflage.

- Blood Weapon needs to be looked at to determine why it doesn't comfortably fit 5 gcds in it like other similar abilities such as Inner Release.

- Just a visual "QoL" change, but I would love to see Delirium have it's visual and sound fx changed from what we currently have, which I find to be too subtle to notice at all in combat, to the old Dark Arts "charge up" fx with the blue lightning. It would lend it some much needed impact and "cool factor".

Now the bigger impact retroactive changes:

- At lvl.72 you gain the trait Enhanced Carve and Spit which reduces the Carve and Spit recast time by 5 seconds upon landing Bloodspiller or Quietus on most targets. This is in lieu of just straight-up reducing the Carve and Spit recast time, making it something more interactive and dynamic while achieving relatively the same result of more frequent Carve and Spit usage.

- At lvl.78 you get the Enhanced Shadow Wall trait, adding the additional effect to Shadow Wall of restoring a small amount of MP when you suffer physical damage. This basically adds a slight Blood Price like effect to Shadow Wall, giving it a little something unique similar to the damage dealt by Vengeance.

- Abyssal Drain would get the changes proposed in my previous thread. Below are these changes.
+ Recast reduced to 30s instead of 60s.
+ Damage potency reduced to 100 from 200.
+ Cure potency reduced to 100 from 200.
+ Abyssal Drain now also applies a damage over time effect to enemies for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total per enemy).
+ Abyssal Drain now also applies a healing over time effect to self for 40 potency for 15s (200 potency total)(applied on ability use and not per enemy hit).
+ *UPDATE* Potentially lower Soul Eater cure potency to 250 if changes to AD seem unbalanced.
+ *UPDATE 2* Allow Abyssal Drain to hold 2 charges so you can store uses for better burst healing.
+ * In single-target this would equate to 600 potency of damage and cures every 60s vs. the 400pot damage and 200pot cure of current AD + Salted. At 2 enemies it would be 1200pot damage and 800pot healing vs. 800pot damage and 400pot healing. 3 enemies, 1800pot damage and 1000pot healing vs. 1200pot damage and 600pot heal. Basically being a consistent 50% damage and 400 cure potency boost, no matter the # of enemies compared to the current AD and Salted, which tbh are a tad underwhelming as they are and make up very little of DRK's overall dps.

Finally the new stuff post lvl.80 which drastically changes up their Delirium burst window.

- At lvl.82 you gain the trait Enhanced Delirium that grants 2 stacks of Dark Will for a duration of 10s.
You also gain the weaponskill Dark Torrent.
+ Deals 200 potency to all enemies in a 5y radius from the player.
+ Combo Action: Quietus
+ Combo Potency: 300
+ Combo Bonus *(after trait): Grants a Dark Arts
+ Can only be executed while under the effect of Dark Will. Consumes 1 stack of Dark Will on use.

- At lvl 84 you get the Enhanced Dark Arts trait. It allows for the Dark Arts gauge to hold 2 usages of Dark Arts.

- At lvl.86 you gain the weaponskill Dark Guillotine.
+ Deals 550 potency to target in melee range.
+ Combo Action: Bloodspiller
+ Combo Potency: 850
+ Combo Bonus *(after trait): Grants a Dark Arts
+ Can only be executed while under the effect of Dark Will. Consumes 1 stack of Dark Will on use.

- At lvl.88 you gain the trait Deepening Darkness which bestows a Dark Arts when Dark Torrent or Dark Guillotine is used in a combo.

- At lvl.90 you gain the trait Master of the Abyss which provides the following:
+ While under the effect of Dark Arts, Edge of Shadow is upgraded to Edge of the Abyss and Flood of Shadow is upgraded to Flood of the Abyss.
+ Edge of the Abyss:650 potency
+ Flood of the Abyss: 350 potency
+ Both have "upgraded" fx to denote being more powerful.

I am still trying to tackle a few issues that I see, namely adding more to do in the non-burst "between-time". It's alleviated somewhat with making Carve and Spit and Abyssal Drain use more frequent and a bit of variation with the powered up Edges/Floods with Dark Arts, but I could see there needing to be a tad bit more. The main hurdles I am trying to overcome is avoiding ability/button bloat and making sure that any such additions have a real reason to be included in the kit other than just being there to be another button to press.

[TheRealQuah]

I like all of the pre-80 changes you've listed, other than I'd keep Living Dead the same, but add a Bloodbath/Convalescence style effect to it.
Keep Dark Mind the same, but have an alternative skill to it, in a similar way to how WAR has Raw Intuition/Nascent Flash. Some sort of life-steal based on physical damage mitigated, e,g reduce physical damage taken by 10% for 8s and absorb damage mitigated as health. Stick it on the same CD as DM so you can use one or the other. Can then delete Abyssal Drain, because this skill would only be better in Aoe.

Your level 90 skill. Does this mean with the dark arts you would get a "free" upgraded Edge/Flood. If so, I'd get rid of the level 88 as it might be packing too much of the damage into the delirium window, move the 90 to 88, and add a skill at 90 that's a Delirium finisher. So you would do Bloodspiller/Guillotine/Bloodspiller/Guillotine/Finisher. Have the finisher give you 2 stacks of dark arts, then you have something to do after delirium is over.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Dark Mind change is horrible and does nothing but sodomize the cooldown. You have more than enough mitigation for physical damage between Rampart, Shadow Wall, Reprisal, and TBN. Dark Mind functioning as a magic damage-esque Rampart is fine and cutting its magic mitigation in half to add in physical mitigation is an awful idea that will ruin the cooldown.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Dark Mind change is horrible and does nothing but sodomize the cooldown. You have more than enough mitigation for physical damage between Rampart, Shadow Wall, Reprisal, and TBN. Dark Mind functioning as a magic damage-esque Rampart is fine and cutting its magic mitigation in half to add in physical mitigation is an awful idea that will ruin the cooldown.

Its half general, half magic mitigation.

[Lucy_Pyre]

Its half general, half magic mitigation.

Which is terrible. The cooldown is perfectly fine as is and, as I already stated, DRK has plenty of physical mitigation already. Leave DM alone rather than gutting its intended use just to add some half ass "generic" use, when that generic use isn't needed.