Can we get choices that really matter and have a effect?

[linay]

On the other side of the coin, liberally throwing around labels such as good and evil, outright dismissing the villains as genocidial maniacs (...ok it might apply to Nidhogg) in a story clearly aiming for some moral relativist tones, is naive, self righteous and ignores most of the nuance behind the scenario.

While I feel that certain labels may not be necessary in some situations, an attempt at a nuance can become largely irrelevant when there are two choices in the end: stop what the antagonist is trying to do or not.

If what the antagonist is doing must be stopped, then the action is evil from the perspective of the protagonist regardless if the protagonist can understand why the antagonist is doing it and can even be tempted to do it given similar circumstances, and if the antagonist is not meant to be evil or is meant to be morally redeemed, then they must be made to see the error of their ways even if they still lose/die in the end. Nuance can be irrelevant here, and can even distract from or even undermine the reason why the antagonist must be stopped in the first place if handled incorrectly.

I also disagree with moral relativism and wouldn't want the protagonist to have that worldview. I do think it's completely valid to have the protagonist seek to question and clarify their moral worldview, but the end goal should still be to have moral convictions. That's different from moral relativism and I don't think it's naive or necessarily self-righteous to have moral convictions even if not everyone agrees with you.

[Enla]

Anyone simply need look at a Bioware game to see why 'meaningful choices' is a carefully crafted illusion in any game that must adhere to a continuing narrative. Dragon Age Origins had genuinely impactful choices that caused wildly different outcomes in the epilogue and caused each and every playthrough to feel unique in some small way. Yet the second it was decided that the game would instead birth a franchise those choices were pretty much nullified in their entirety. Those epilogues that reflected our choices were completely removed from the canon, no legit every single one is non-canon at present out of sheer necessity, and going forward every choice that could be made was superficial at best. The ones that weren't superficial also basically ended entire plot threads with their inclusion. We're never seeing Hawke again for example after the events of Inquisition as their narrative relevance was nuked from orbit due to the inclusion of one very specific choice. This is done because after awhile the narrative gets way too jumbled to actually keep straight when the writers must contend and place equal value on every choice, every player could have possibly made.

The writers would have to be MAD to intentionally inflict that kind of constraint upon themselves with an MMO.

[Edax]

Anyone simply need look at a Bioware game to see why 'meaningful choices' is a carefully crafted illusion in any game that must adhere to a continuing narrative. Dragon Age Origins had genuinely impactful choices that caused wildly different outcomes in the epilogue and caused each and every playthrough to feel unique in some small way. Yet the second it was decided that the game would instead birth a franchise those choices were pretty much nullified in their entirety. Those epilogues that reflected our choices were completely removed from the canon, no legit every single one is non-canon at present out of sheer necessity, and going forward every choice that could be made was superficial at best. The ones that weren't superficial also basically ended entire plot threads with their inclusion. We're never seeing Hawke again for example after the events of Inquisition as their narrative relevance was nuked from orbit due to the inclusion of one very specific choice. This is done because after awhile the narrative gets way too jumbled to actually keep straight when the writers must contend and place equal value on every choice, every player could have possibly made.

The writers would have to be MAD to intentionally inflict that kind of constraint upon themselves with an MMO.

Meaningful choices doesn't have to be an illusion. Meaningful choices don't even need to be impactful or have different outcomes in the epilogue. Bioware is the shining example of why differing outcomes typically doesn't work in video games. Choices that let the player develop the Warrior of Light's character can be meaningful enough in the present. Heck, being able to choose the mood of the conversation with a villain would be interesting. This is really basic stuff and it's disappointing that FFXIV is so devoid of player agency in the story.

[M1551NGN0]

https://www.fanfiction.net/

[KalinOrthos]

OP is the type of person to shout an incredibly racist thing then wonder why everyone calls them a racist. The lack of self-awareness tells me their either too juvenile to understand empathy, too conceited to see anything but their own personal justice, or too stupid to understand that ones actions determine how the world views them. Maybe a combination of all three. Or they're just a very elaborate troll. I am hoping desperately this is just a very elaborate troll, because the thought of someone existing like this as anything more than an edgy teenage boy is, frankly, very concerning.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

OP is the type of person to shout an incredibly racist thing then wonder why everyone calls them a racist. The lack of self-awareness tells me their either too juvenile to understand empathy, too conceited to see anything but their own personal justice, or too stupid to understand that ones actions determine how the world views them. Maybe a combination of all three. Or they're just a very elaborate troll. I am hoping desperately this is just a very elaborate troll, because the thought of someone existing like this as anything more than an edgy teenage boy is, frankly, very concerning.

I'm well aware the world might hate me lol but the worlds view on me or what I believe is what would lead to the world being a better place. As Prince Arthas said when he was willing to pay any price bare any curse as long as it helped him save his people. he took it on because it was to save life not end it that isn't evil that is self-sarfice for the greater good. I find concerning is how ... you people think this is bad or evil when your soft weak justice system only creates more suffering than it prevents humanity needs someone with no mercy no remorse to save it. beside how others view me doesn't matter do you really let how others view you effect what you believe in? thats rather sad

Right, I'm just going to duck out if this conversation, but I want to leave you with a thought.



This right here tells me everything I need to know about how you view the world. You're stupid or naive enough to believe that alignment is based on the words you write in the "Alignment" space. The truth is, your alignment is based on how you affect the world around you, how your personality fits within the paradigm of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. Zenos is, at the absolute best, Neutral Evil, and at worst Chaotic Evil. If you cannot realize why that's so, then there is genuinely no help for you.

Coincidentally, it also makes me genuinely pity anyone who has the displeasure to play D&D with you if you think wanton murder is justified with "But I'm just chaotic neutral, guys". Screw you.

I wasn't justifying zenos all I'm say is his like Aizen in bleach they just want something or someone to fight with he had every chance to kill alot of characters including us but he choice to not do it because he wanted to "play" some more
beside I play lawfull characters mostly lol

Yeah, that turned our great for the people of Lordaeron and Stratholme.

I'll throw in my vote for the people calling troll.

believe what you want it doesn't matter but just know the Lich king had controll and had foresight of future enemeys such as old gods and was also really only doing what he felt was the best option (which funny as it is they turned the lich king into a good guy in current wow)

[Lersayil]

I'm well aware the world might hate me lol but the worlds view on me or what I believe is what would lead to the world being a better place. As Prince Arthas said when he was willing to pay any price bare any curse as long as it helped him save his people. he took it on because it was to save life not end it that isn't evil that is self-sarfice for the greater good. I find concerning is how ... you people think this is bad or evil when your soft weak justice system only creates more suffering than it prevents humanity needs someone with no mercy no remorse to save it.

Yeah, that turned our great for the people of Lordaeron and Stratholme.

I'll throw in my vote for the people calling troll.

[KalinOrthos]

Right, I'm just going to duck out if this conversation, but I want to leave you with a thought.

as for zenos he just wanted a play mate to fight with he wasnt evil or good he was chaotic neutral

This right here tells me everything I need to know about how you view the world. You're stupid or naive enough to believe that alignment is based on the words you write in the "Alignment" space. The truth is, your alignment is based on how you affect the world around you, how your personality fits within the paradigm of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. Zenos is, at the absolute best, Neutral Evil, and at worst Chaotic Evil. If you cannot realize why that's so, then there is genuinely no help for you.

Coincidentally, it also makes me genuinely pity anyone who has the displeasure to play D&D with you if you think wanton murder is justified with "But I'm just chaotic neutral, guys". Screw you.

[LolitaBansheeMeru]

Right, I'm just going to duck out if this conversation, but I want to leave you with a thought.



This right here tells me everything I need to know about how you view the world. You're stupid or naive enough to believe that alignment is based on the words you write in the "Alignment" space. The truth is, your alignment is based on how you affect the world around you, how your personality fits within the paradigm of Good, Evil, Law, and Chaos. Zenos is, at the absolute best, Neutral Evil, and at worst Chaotic Evil. If you cannot realize why that's so, then there is genuinely no help for you.

Coincidentally, it also makes me genuinely pity anyone who has the displeasure to play D&D with you if you think wanton murder is justified with "But I'm just chaotic neutral, guys". Screw you.

Okay I get he might fall under that... regardless

I still like and respect characters like Emet-set and honestly do believe what they are doing as good because just really trying to fix things is that really so wrong. I mean really when people respect the jokers/harleys partnership as romantic is it really concerning thatI respect and care and want character like light yagami to win and fix things in the storys.
I always have respect and understanding of those characters yes I would want to help them because honestly I can get where they are coming from okay Really whats so naive or stupid about that.

Thats all I really want from a story is for it to not dismiss characters that honestly atleast myself can understand and get why they are doing it .. I mean its like the books the summoning I can understand the character Chloe but ya

I just need for once people not put this characters into Villian catagorys just because the methods they use i need it to happan because would show that sometimes such things are needed you know

[Deusteele]

You don't ever make a counter argument.

Their methods are what makes them villains. Choosing to arbitrarily hurt and kill others just because you've been hurt, isn't anything that should ever be lauded. It's something to be pitied and shunned. And that's being generous with some of the characters you've talked about.

Anyway, I'm going to bow out of this now. If you're being serious about this, you have problems.