SE, don't nerf SMN's DoT potency. Remove Tri-Disaster's Reset Mechanic First.

[Silverquick]

Given that SMN had such a general lead in all content at all percentiles and not just TEA (recall a long thread I posted where we brought up the fact that this would happen, and that RDM would need buffs), it comes to no surprise that they opted for one of the easier baseline adjustments, just like all the previous times they adjusted DoT potency up increasing the baseline damage in a similar fashion.

Whether it manifested through DoTs being changed to 40 (-~3%) or 45p (-~1.5%) each or reducing pet potency across the board (which would have further ramifications and wouldn't be as elegant), they are one of the outcomes we were expecting. 40p would fit the bill for the meme.

That's the problem... does not have the lead in ALL content profiles.

The job is pretty weak on the way up the levels.

That's why any Nerfs would need to be targeted ONLY at the powers that affect level 80.

So if you want to target something you need to target the Abilities that come at the 80th level of play. Not the things in the base job or affect other forms of content like DoTs.

Thats akin to deciding you need to nerf the entire Astral Fire or Umbral Ice on BLM instead of just going with a Fire IV nerf.

[lulunami]

Nerfing DoT potency is the easiest for them to calculate in order to get the effect they want. If they nerf the higher Lv. moves, it can have much more significant effects than intended because of party raid buffs and the burst-oriented abilities of SMN. If you flatten out the damage variance on SMN, you are dramatically changing the way the job is played.


If lower level play balance was important to the dev team, they would nerf RDM at Lv. 50 since RDM is likely the strongest Lv. 50 job.

[Nemekh]

That's the problem... does not have the lead in ALL content profiles.

The job is pretty weak on the way up the levels.

That's why any Nerfs would need to be targeted ONLY at the powers that affect level 80.

So if you want to target something you need to target the Abilities that come at the 80th level of play. Not the things in the base job or affect other forms of content like DoTs.

Thats akin to deciding you need to nerf the entire Astral Fire or Umbral Ice on BLM instead of just going with a Fire IV nerf.

As Lulu Nami's said, lower-level job balance is not their scope of interest unless their changes break job quests to the point of being impossible to complete, or considerably harder - see the case where they rebalanced quests where Titan Egi would have tanked enemies.

Some of the more recent jobs are absolutely god-tier early on because they have access to what's effectively some of their end game potency at really early levels because that's just the nature of their standard GCDs and certain oGCDs. They could rebalance and implement traits to control this, but they have not chosen to do so. Their primary concern is the current max level where the lead does in fact exist.

The job also was considerably buffed at lower levels just from the pet change and Egi Assaults, the job is far from weak and is one of the few DPS jobs with access to sustained AoE from Emerald Carbuncle at lower dungeons when many jobs don't even have AoE at all until much later. It's Lv. 70 content that risks suffering the biggest loss from DoT changes vs Lv. 80, but again it's offset by just how much the pet change raised Summoner's damage floor from Ifrit Egi.

Also, your comparison to AF/UI isn't remotely close. While we do not have the intended numbers, a tweak to Bio III and Miasma III alone would be sufficient without even having to touch I and II. Not to mention our DoTs are not even the overall % of the damage that AF contributes to BLM's fire nukes. Literally apples to oranges.

[Deceptus]

If lower level play balance was important to the dev team, they would nerf RDM at Lv. 50 since RDM is likely the strongest Lv. 50 job.

SE has proven they don't care much at all for lower level play. Every time they're re-done jobs for expansions it's the lower levels that have suffered the worst. Kits that feel clunky etc. Job quests that literally can't be done because they remove and ability and don't think to update the quest.

[Nemekh]

Mm, Nemekh and others have done a hell of a job with that site.

I missed this earlier with the new page, however, thanks I appreciate it. It's a big WIP and there's always more to do. There are some large plans to make it a caster hub where the next part I'm working on is the RDM website, as I know with the changes people will want to play RDM more be it learning anew or returning, so the best call is having good information readily accessible.

[Duskane]

Dots are just the safest thing right now
since they dont wanna risk ruining the job before a new tier

[Gruntler]

Thats akin to deciding you need to nerf the entire Astral Fire or Umbral Ice on BLM instead of just going with a Fire IV nerf.

but but... summoner's later level stuff IS their Astral Fire/Umbral Ice stuff on Summoner, and dots are more of a 'Fire IV' thing....

[HeulGDarian]

but but... summoner's later level stuff IS their Astral Fire/Umbral Ice stuff on Summoner, and dots are more of a 'Fire IV' thing....

Its not but i digress. Bit of a personal opinion but smn feels better at lower levels. Id say lvl 60 is where it feels the Best. Not that i hate blasting peeps with baha/pheon but yeee...... As for the dps nerf 3% is not that much and there Will be no differense on how the job plays. Also a Bit off topic but i really really wish they Just take a step back on the changes and give stormblood smn a glorious return to the game. I loved that job so much its practically my ideal smn in this game but im certain that it isnt possible anymore.

[ShariusTC]

if they bother to nerfed SMN for...uh... balance game play, please let me "place" my demi summon as well, or make them stay their ass off in one place that we summon them

[Grimoire-M]

To address some concerns:

- "Snapshotting is working as intended/isn't a bug": I agree, for the most part. In retrospect, this needed better framing.

The reason I feel it's a problem is because of what SE's changes to SMN and BRD in the past suggest they view this as problematic. The accurate term in this case would be an exploit, (unintended use of intentional game mechanics). To me it indicates they don't really want DoTs working in the manner they do, but either don't have or don't want to allocate the resources to address the side-effects they didn't intend. Which, yes, is a damned good argument to nerf them directly. Bane in A2S and BRD's Repertoire mechanic were referenced specifically as examples of how snapshotting has unintended consequences. It gave BRD lopsided gear and raid buff scaling on a patch by patch basis and thus made the class harder to balance as a whole, and, yes, the nature of the base mechanic can inflate SMN and BRD's numbers, relative to their baseline potential.

I believe the removal of personal buffs (Spur/Rouse and DWT's old magic damage boost were examples of this for SMN specifically) come from a similar place. The overall trajectory of their class changes generally shows they don't want players having to worry about specific micromanagement like this. Again, sacrificing potential depth and complexity for accessibility. Whether that's a healthy motive for the game long term is a completely different discussion you can view repeatedly in the healer and tank forums.

- "DoTs are a pain to hardcast": I disagree. They 'were' a pain to hardcast.

Nowadays they're braindead easy, to the point of not needing to be hardcast more than once every two minutes (less in some circumstances, more in others). Did people suddenly forget about this just because SE made shifts to make the Ruin III spam from Stormblood less obvious? We used to have five of them on the GCD back in Heavensward, remember? Including former versions of Shadowflare and Miasma II, both skills that have since been removed entirely. Three of those were hardcast, one of those was only used in specific instances alongside Contagion (which I'll acknowledge is what the reset mechanic is essentially replacing, though, again, this causes problems), and they had different, staggered durations. Tri-Disaster's addition in Heavensward made sense under that context, as it saved three GCDs, two of which were hardcast. Once Stormblood hit it felt more than reasonable to leave it alone as Contagion was gone, and the upgraded DoTs unified their durations, making them easy to micromanage. Taking two additional GCDs off is more than reasonable for two and even three targets, particularly with one of them being an instant-cast spell you can use to weave Energy and Aetherflow Abilities consistently.

The only place where it's a pain to have to hardcast a DoT is right before a Phoenix specifically, which you can account for with the current setup.

-"It screws our opener/Rotation": The opener would shift to a variation of the current Bahamut openers Nemekh has up on AkhMorning. The major difference is Egi Assaults would shift back one GCD as a Ruin III during pre-pull and DWT would be replaced. You could also reasonably use DWT on the first GCD alongside Energy Drain to cycle it faster while weaving Aetherpact by itself. Everything else would remain the exact same as Nemekh has laid out, as it's still the optimal opener.

All that proceeds in your rotation is the replacement of a Tri-Disaster during your filler inbetween Phoenix and DWT with hardcast DoTs. That would be unavoidable. However, it does let you fit in a Fester guaranteed during that period, letting you conserve another use of an Egi-Assault if necessary for movement. You will maintain the current 5s of leeway on casting Tri-Disaster and Trance to adjust these phases as well as account for clipping when it's most convenient.

Even with those changes, there is still room to cast a second set of DoTs on a secondary, non Chain/TA'd target if they must be separated from one another during the opener, which is still a net gain over using the two Ruin IIIs you'd use on the Chain/TA target during that window, and gains you an additional Ruin IV use during Bahamut, allowing you to conserve Swiftcast for any situation you prefer in the first minute. Given SE doesn't generally open boss fights like that, it's a rather moot point, but it might as well be noted.

And, finally, you could preserve this opener on two targets by simply giving Tri-Disaster two charges in this scenario, if it was somehow that big of a deal. The rotation is by far the larger issue here, but this would also enable you to plan ahead Tri-Disaster uses based on movement if that proved to be better, but that would require a base damage nerf on Tri-Disaster as well.


-"DoTs are too strong anyways. SMN needs the nerf":
Latter, yes. Former is merely an option of how to proceed with that nerf. I'm spitballing this idea as an alternative option (That, yes, I prefer) to what I and others are expecting the nerf to be, particularly in the context where the reset mechanic becomes absurd (2-3 targets), as its an area where SMN already excels. I'm not even opposed to the idea if they feel they need to nerf SMN's DoTs harder, as it would enable a lesser nerf while, again, addressing this specific mechanic.

I'm okay with SMN being situationally strong. The best in certain fights, but not on top in every aspect that a DPS could care about. But I'm not okay with feast-or-famine DPS potential based on the existence of certain fights either. Basically, I have limits. Akin to the methodology behind BRD's changes to Repertoire, I would like to see SE lower SMN's baseline non-DoT DPS and a particular spike caused by the reset mechanic in order to preserve the general ceiling provided by their current DoT potency as much as possible (again, I'm not opposed to the DoT nerfs. I am worried about SE overdoing it or using it as a reason to remove them later). To me, it seems perfectly in line with SE's previous changes. If you don't feel so, I'm willing to agree to disagree.

- "Changing numbers and gameplay over simply changing numbers is unecessary and doesn't make sense if people like the current gameplay":

I'm of the opinion the gameplay the reset mechanic creates isn't worth preserving long term. It's boring, and doesn't offer much in the way of tactical decision making that couldn't be accomplished in a fairer manner, which is an element of SMN's DPS kit that's been steadily vanishing. If you're mad about Aetherflow I don't see why you'd prefer the reset mechanic to not having it (nevermind charges being essentially better), as the lack of it generates some more options and a minor limitation regarding movement. If you feel SMN's gameplay needs to be more streamlined this change is perfectly in line with that viewpoint. It also creates edge cases specific to SMN's optimization that have to be accounted for in order to balance their overall DPS potential, and the problems its intending to solve have already been addressed by other changes SE has done as I've covered above. The only other reasonable hiccup under these considerations that I haven't addressed is "Does SMN need more buttons to press?" Which depends. Three are dedicated to the specific tasks of weaving and movement on top of a dedicated cooldown that enables those other three to be more or less flexible. Given that, I don't think it's harmful to make the two infrequently required GCDs occur more often in the core rotation, particularly when you consider the shift is requiring those two GCDs to be pressed at relatively the same time every minute ala SAM's Midare-Tsubame burst instead of once every two, with much less setup required by comparison.

And, again, there are alternatives available. If people for some reason want to keep exactly three Tri-Disasters every two minutes, what is the harm in giving them a 40s cooldown with the same 2 charges, then? Apart from removing the two-target double-reset situation I mentioned above, it would be functionally identical except in fights with a lot of jumps, an aspect SMN mains previously appreciated when it was tacked onto Aetherflow specifically. So if you feel that aspect was overbearing and this wasn't I'd have to ask what matters to you more.

That said, I should probably put Tri-Disaster to a poll like I did with the Aetherflow Lockouts in Stormblood, to gauge the general opinion. Will edit original post and sig accordingly, but here it is here:

https://www.strawpoll.me/19390301