SE, don't nerf SMN's DoT potency. Remove Tri-Disaster's Reset Mechanic First.

[Grimoire-M]

Tl;dr is the title.

To be clear, I get why SE is targeting Summoner's DoT potency specifically. The problem SE is trying to address with SMN's DoTs is directly tied to their engine, and fight design. SMN is a DoT focused class, and how much damage a DoT does is determined when they are applied, which allows the caster to 'snapshot' any buffs on themselves and any debuffs that affect the damage dealt on enemies that apply at the time, even if those effects wouldn't last the whole duration of the DoT. This can result in DoTs artificially gaining their benefits past their intended duration. Their high total potency also allows them to scale up to multiple targets extremely well, particularly at two or three, where it's easy, if not ideal to rotate between DoTs on those targets.

Clearly, this is something that's inherently exploitable. Exploitable as all hell. There's a reason SE has generally tried to remove DoTs from all classes that don't 'need' them. Used well, they can spike your overall DPS in a multitude of situations. Used poorly, you lose DPS over time due to clipping them too early.

That said, SMN isn't the only one who's benefited from this mechanic. This has been a problem with Bard as well in the past, but Bard historically had a secondary mechanic that benefited massively from these effects. Crit-based procs. This was the Bloodletter reset mechanic of Heavensward/ARR turned Repertoire in Stormblood that they all know well and love, but the core of it was simply "Get bonus if DoT ticks crit". The result? During HW, but SB especially, Bards would refresh DoTs whenever a crit-based buff was applied, or about to fall off, and ride the increased crit-rate far past what SE intended (there were exceptions, of course, but generally you were in the purple range if this is explicitly what you were doing).

SE's solution in 5.0 was to finally decouple Repertoire from Crit, and upgrade Bard's filler weaponskill potency with the new Burst Shot while leaving Iron Jaws alone, which was more than sufficient to tip things in favor of not snapshotting early, even before the 5.1 changes. Bard's DoT potency nerfs were intended to balance the song buffs. BRD's opportunity cost for snapshotting was already altered in favor of not going for it just because the cost of giving up a Burst Shot or Refulgent Arrow for Iron Jaws is significant.

SMN also has a track record of being underwhelming or over-performing for similar reasons as Bard, partially because of their DoTs. There are some primary reasons for that, one of the standout cases is happening right now (TEA), and A2S back in Heavensward too was perhaps the most egregious example, as Bane & Gobwalker Vul Ups were insanely synergistic. However, Bard is one of the weakest DPS currently. So, then, why do I feel SMN, who is currently the top DPS class in pretty much every metric that matters to a raid group, shouldn't get a nerf to their DoTs? Clearly we can't buff its filler, so wouldn't nerfing their DoTs work?

Well, yes, duh. However, I don't think it'll remove the problems that will keep SMN in the state it's been lately. And, personally speaking, I like DoTs. My fear is SE will pile on nerfs to Miasma and Bio then attempt to remove them entirely. Particularly as people clamour for egi & Demi reworks and removing or splitting Arcanist (SMN's base class, which is marked as a DPS role for a reason) into SCH and SMN only. To me, those, and carbuncles are what make Arcanist work. It's part of their identity, and that identity just happens to split down two equally valid job paths.

Aesthetics aside, Nerfing the DoTs wouldn't solve the problems I'm worried about.

There's two reasons just mucking with DoTs doesn't address SMN's snapshot issues. The first, and most obvious of these, is Bane.

Bane is free. And the elements that make Bane strong are absolutely something to be afraid of. That said, I feel it is in its most balanced state since its inception. Its current potency reduction and lack of Aetherflow cost is what makes it useable. It honestly felt like the skill was bugged to always apply full potency in Heavensward, and in Stormblood it was so weak that it wasn't worth using over Painflare at all. If current SMN needs an AoE nerf, I'd personally hit Outburst. It doesn't need much, and Bane and SMN's DoTs don't need to be weaker here when it's relatively easy to tune Outburst to account for their baseline. Garuda's Egi Assault I and Painflares are part of their burst, and that seems to be appropriate at the moment, so lowering their floor seems like the better option, if possible.

That gets us to the second problem with SMN. The one I feel needs addressing. Tri-Disaster.

Tri-Disaster is too good, simple as that.

No. Really. For the purposes of snapshotting, this is a 1300 potency (1k total DoT potency + 300 on application) ability. This thing hits almost as hard as Technical Finish, is available three times as often AND doesn't take up a GCD. So of course you're going to line it up with burst cooldowns if possible. Barring specific instances forcing different management, there's little reason not to align them directly with other raid cooldowns. To me, toning this skill down is the first thing SE should do.

That said, people are going to try to align DoTs with Raid buffs regardless. So, in practical terms, what each Tri-D does is free up two GCDs for more Ruin IIIs or Outbursts at some point per use, which makes it worth an effective 250 potency (subtracting the initial potency on Miasma III from the potency on Tri-D) + 400 Single Target (650 total) or 180 AoE for those GCDs in practice.

How does that compare to adjusting SMN's DoTs? Well, if SE does what I think they're going to do, and drops both DoTs to 40 potency/tick, it would be a total loss of 800 (10 potency x 2 DoTs x 20 ticks a minute x 2 minutes) on their initial target, and 320 for each additional target off of a Bane, over the course of those two minutes. If they go lower than this, then there's other things I would do, but this is most likely what they will do. It's already happened in Stormblood and 5.0, after all.

Thus, as it turns out, removing Tri-Disaster's Reset mechanic actually comes close to nearly solving this problem. Reducing Ruin IV to 280 alongside this would be equivalent to the DoT nerfs on a single target in this case. For AoE, the most likely culprit would be to target Outburst by reducing it to 80 potency, which should be more than sufficient.

That all said, there's another reason I'm advocating removing the reset mechanic, because it hit's SMN's two-target DPS spike by a metric ton. SMN's two-target rotation gets knocked down by a grand total of 1300 (800 from hardcast Ruins + 600 Tri-Disaster potency - 100 from Miasma IIIs), as you can abuse the Tri-Disaster reset mechanic to get two extra uses every two minutes on two targets, specifically by alternating between Tri-Ds and Hardcast DoTs every 30s. Removing the resets cuts out two Tri-Ds in that instance. I'd wager the reset mechanic is solely responsible for the large gap between SMN and other DPS in there. Nerfing the DoT potency would have a larger impact (1600 over the same two minutes on both targets, to be precise), but that nerf scales with each target. The reset mechanic only matters for 2-3 targets, after which Bane takes over. It doesn't solve the problem the reset mechanic creates in fights like TEA, in A2S, and similar two-boss fights (Such as Eden Verse Garuda & Ifrit) going forward. It's the reason O12 was designed the way it was. Nipping it in the bud now makes it far easier to adjust SMN long term, and, to be frank, SMN never needed this mechanic in the first place. Hell, I'd argue that if SE wants to nerf SMN's DoT potency even more than 10 potency on each DoT, this would allow them to adjust that nerf to a more appropriate level and target the most problematic aspect remaining in their kit, short of a full DoT-tick rework that addresses snapshotting ala WoW.

Given all of that, to me, it seems obvious that removing the Tri-Disaster Reset mechanic should be the first nerf given to SMN. Not the only one, but definitely the first. It helps that it is relatively easy to do for a mechanical change mid-expansion, too.

What are your thoughts? Agree, disagree? I'd appreciate the input.

EDIT: I've decided to put this to a poll with some potential alternatives. Here it is: https://www.strawpoll.me/19390301

Look at my response here for more clarification that addresses some arguments if needed.

[Shurrikhan]

As much as I'm keen to agree on the whole -- especially when it comes to content like Alexander Ultimate -- between a DoT potency reduction and removing the Reset mechanic, one is literally just a deserved nerf to numbers and the other also a nerf in some form to gameplay. Most players aren't going to be thinking of its free cleave damage or snapshotting so much as just the fact that they used to be able to go X duration without manually resetting DoTs, or could frequently just run in, Tri-Disaster, and Bane, and now they can't.

Personally, though a bit more elaborate a change, I'd rather see TD's power budget siphoned in some other way. For instance, what if we siphoned first from the general budget to allow for 4 Aetherflow skills per minute. Moreover, and Fester and Painflare would each be empowered slightly. Thereafter Bane would empowered (especially in lower mob-count situations) but it and Tri-disaster would each cost Aetherflow. In 2-target situations, Fester and TD should be of equal strength. In 3-target situations, TD would compete closely with Bane and Painflare based on raid buffs and mob lifespan. The free budget of TD, especially in 2-target situations, would be greatly reduced, but it'd still be as flexible as before. Heck, you could make it more flexible without too many issues.

[Silverquick]

I was not aware of a potential Nerf to DoTs.

Where is this coming from?

That said, if done, its another one where they're going to end up overnerfing again like they did during Stormblood and then they'll have to go back and fix it again just like they did before.

The reason DoTs make the Summoner either uber in one situation or not so good in others is all due to how much movement is required in any given instance by other jobs.

Any job that can place Damage on a target without having to hit buttons while all the other ones have to move around is going to have an advantage there. The SMN will always come out on top of that. Any instance where the other jobs (Like BLM) can sit in place and constantly spam is going to come out on top there.

The SMN's actual Single target attacks are not that strong. Not compared to the enormous chunks other jobs can dish out. Check out a Samurai or BLM and you will see it.

SMN is about layering all these smaller attacks one on top of another to stack them and them maintaining them. That is not so easy and is the hard part of being a SMN. Sure it looks impressive with the lightshow, but those actual attacks are not that big.

It was how they hosed it up during the beginning of Stormblood and then had to go fix it again because that small piece was not so small.

[Kabooa]

They're nerfing dots because there's a multiboss fight, and if they felt the need to specifically call out DoTs, it's probably because there won't be a targeter limit like in FOmega.

While on-paper might seem the same, removing the reset mechanic on Tri Disaster would feel awful. Unless many Summoners feel the current flow of the class is broken, better to just keep to potency adjustments.

[Shiroe]

just buff Blm (a bit) and Rdm (a bit more), instead of nerfing Smn

[ReiMakoto]

I was not aware of a potential Nerf to DoTs.

Where is this coming from?

That said, if done, its another one where they're going to end up overnerfing again like they did during Stormblood and then they'll have to go back and fix it again just like they did before.

The reason DoTs make the Summoner either uber in one situation or not so good in others is all due to how much movement is required in any given instance by other jobs.

Any job that can place Damage on a target without having to hit buttons while all the other ones have to move around is going to have an advantage there. The SMN will always come out on top of that. Any instance where the other jobs (Like BLM) can sit in place and constantly spam is going to come out on top there.

The SMN's actual Single target attacks are not that strong. Not compared to the enormous chunks other jobs can dish out. Check out a Samurai or BLM and you will see it.

SMN is about layering all these smaller attacks one on top of another to stack them and them maintaining them. That is not so easy and is the hard part of being a SMN. Sure it looks impressive with the lightshow, but those actual attacks are not that big.

It was how they hosed it up during the beginning of Stormblood and then had to go fix it again because that small piece was not so small.

They said it in the most recent live letter so its happeneing, and I doubt that it will be overnerfed they can see how much smn is doing currently so tuning the dots down they can tune down however much damage they need to to make it comfortably sit between rdm and blm

[Silverquick]

They're nerfing dots because there's a multiboss fight, and if they felt the need to specifically call out DoTs, it's probably because there won't be a targeter limit like in FOmega.

While on-paper might seem the same, removing the reset mechanic on Tri Disaster would feel awful. Unless many Summoners feel the current flow of the class is broken, better to just keep to potency adjustments.

I'm not so sure of that.

One of the things that wrecked the SMN in Stormblood was nerfing those DoT potencies because they quite literally affect the job all the way up and down the chain through ALL CONTENT... NOT just in some Savage fight somewhere.

If this is an upper level issue, then you have to select ONLY the part that is the upper level issue or you wreck the thing all the way up and down the chain.

Nerfing the base damage on Tri-Disaster impact itself would be something that only affects high levels. But DoTs themselves end up hosing the things up all the way down to the base level because it literally is the base level of the job.

That's quite literally what crushed the job in the beginning of Stormblood. And the same thing will happen.

This was the warning I gave LAST TIME around... they did it anyway and sure enough it did exactly that, so they had to go back and fix it again by adding other things like Outburst to account for it and adjust BANE again back to where it was or at least close to it.

You are going to have to select something else to nerf, because those DoTs are integral to the entire job all the way up the chain.

[Kabooa]

You are going to have to select something else to nerf, because those DoTs are integral to the entire job all the way up the chain.

Rank 3s don't come into play until level 66.

It's fine.

[Silverquick]

Rank 3s don't come into play until level 66.

It's fine.

Yeah... but consider all of the content that hurts that was just fine and previously balanced that no longer would be.

That's the problem with it. Its not just affecting one little fight.

[Kabooa]

Yeah... but consider all of the content that hurts that was just fine and previously balanced that no longer would be.

That's the problem with it. Its not just affecting one little fight.

You mean all the content Summoner cleared before they got an effective 20% damage boost?

They'll be fine.