Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Angus-Beef]

Ok, thats twitch though, even if they are streaming FF14, thats still not in game where you see if. If you never see or hear it, does it matter? If a tree falls in the woods and no is around, does it make a sound? By far the vast majority of interactions in game are either neutral or polite.

I feel a lot of people take on others feelings and situations more so then their own.

[Quor]

What leads to toxicity isn't the parser (that will exist in the game nonetheless) but the over reliance of the game on DPS.

You 're a healer ? You need to DPS.
You re a tank ? You need to DPS.

Everything is about DPS at endgame. It is the pinnacle of hypocrisy to design the game that way but forbid the use of parsers (yet alone not implementing one in the game). Back in 2.X, where the meta was far less about DPS than it is currently, there wasn't such a commotion about it. However, today, I can understand why people ask for parsers and I don't think any group of serious people about endgame (especially ultimate fights) will actually come and say they don't use parsers or third party website to study what happened during the fight.

Its also what leads to the schism between people who play the game to simply collect a few glamours, run the 24 players raid, 4 men dungeons, etc and people who partake in 8 player content. They simply don't share the same vision. Because in one part of the game you need to push for DPS, while in the other the game tells you its ok not to be very good at it. And it is what is transcribed here : some people don't see the point of parsers because they don't need it on the content they run, while some ask for it because it is needed in one part of the game.

Once upon a time, FF14 didn't have enrage timers, at least not in the same way we have now. When 2.0 was released, the end game consisted of the 3 hard-mode primals (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan) and Coils 1-5. Of those encounters, only Twintania had what we would call a "hard" enrage like is commonly seen nowadays. Everything else either had no enrage (the primals, Coil 4) or a soft enrage (Coils 1 and 2), and in the case of Coil 2, this led to the very real problem of dropping a dps for another healer to ensure a nice, safe, guaranteed clear. This was seen most commonly with the Coil 2 enraged strat, whereby you'd wait for the timer to tick down before engaging the final node and just utilize a combination of tri-healer with BRD MP refresh (via Ballad) to out heal the incoming aoe damage while also avoiding Allagan Rot.

SE doesn't want that. All of the design decisions that exist in encounters today are done with the idea of enforcing the 2/2/4 tank/heal/dps composition. Tank busters and swap mechanics are there so that you need to bring tanks (i.e. to avoid stuff like solo tank Zurvan/Ravana as was seen a lot in HW). Healers are often the designated jobs to be targeted for a number of key mechanics throughout a fight, many designed specifically to make the life of a healer more difficult (Seiryu's split aoe stack mechanics in the final phase making it impossible to solo heal). Dps are often given their own designated mechanics as well nowadays, so that the measure of a good dps isn't simply how much damage they output, but their ability to do that damage while also juggling the mechanics the fight imposes upon them. But unlike with a tank buster or a big heal check, those mechanics don't *require* a dps to do them. The only thing that can force the requirement of a dps is the one thing that all dps bring over tanks and healers; more damage.

Lamenting the state of the game in regards to enrage timers will do nothing. They are here to stay, simply because if they weren't then we would run the risk of the playerbase yet again excluding jobs in favor a safer, more certain group comp.

[Anienai]

I don't watch twitch streams, so I would have to ask, how common is harassment /tells from twitch viewers? I know there was that one banned person recently because they were talking crap about someone's DPS with a DPS meter on their stream but thats first time I've heard of something like that happening since I started playing 7 years ago and I play A LOT.

Its not League or Wow toxic, but a streamer could have 30-400 viewers and it only takes a jerk or two ruin someone experience.

[xxvaynxx]

I feel a lot of people take on others feelings and situations more so then their own.

Its called empathy.

Ok, thats twitch though, even if they are streaming FF14, thats still not in game where you see if. If you never see or hear it, does it matter? If a tree falls in the woods and no is around, does it make a sound? By far the vast majority of interactions in game are either neutral or polite. If someone does send a nasty /tell to you in game, you can always report it. I don't watch twitch streams, so I would have to ask, how common is harassment /tells from twitch viewers? I know there was that one banned person recently because they were talking crap about someone's DPS with a DPS meter on their stream but thats first time I've heard of something like that happening since I started playing 7 years ago and I play A LOT.

Just because YOU don't see it, its ok? because that's what I'm getting out of what you're saying. One of the worst things to say. I can say a lot regarding that but I'll leave it be as there is no place for it.
Also you thinking interactions in game are only natural and polite is laughable. You're coming off as very ignorant and reporting isn't always the answer to everything.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Once upon a time, FF14 didn't have enrage timers, at least not in the same way we have now. When 2.0 was released, the end game consisted of the 3 hard-mode primals (Ifrit, Garuda, Titan) and Coils 1-5. Of those encounters, only Twintania had what we would call a "hard" enrage like is commonly seen nowadays. Everything else either had no enrage (the primals, Coil 4) or a soft enrage (Coils 1 and 2), and in the case of Coil 2, this led to the very real problem of dropping a dps for another healer to ensure a nice, safe, guaranteed clear. This was seen most commonly with the Coil 2 enraged strat, whereby you'd wait for the timer to tick down before engaging the final node and just utilize a combination of tri-healer with BRD MP refresh (via Ballad) to out heal the incoming aoe damage while also avoiding Allagan Rot.

SE doesn't want that. All of the design decisions that exist in encounters today are done with the idea of enforcing the 2/2/4 tank/heal/dps composition. Tank busters and swap mechanics are there so that you need to bring tanks (i.e. to avoid stuff like solo tank Zurvan/Ravana as was seen a lot in HW). Healers are often the designated jobs to be targeted for a number of key mechanics throughout a fight, many designed specifically to make the life of a healer more difficult (Seiryu's split aoe stack mechanics in the final phase making it impossible to solo heal). Dps are often given their own designated mechanics as well nowadays, so that the measure of a good dps isn't simply how much damage they output, but their ability to do that damage while also juggling the mechanics the fight imposes upon them. But unlike with a tank buster or a big heal check, those mechanics don't *require* a dps to do them. The only thing that can force the requirement of a dps is the one thing that all dps bring over tanks and healers; more damage.

Lamenting the state of the game in regards to enrage timers will do nothing. They are here to stay, simply because if they weren't then we would run the risk of the playerbase yet again excluding jobs in favor a safer, more certain group comp.

This is incorrect. Turn 4 did in fact have an enrage. The hard primals also had enrages, in the form of add dps checks, or the heart on Titan.


People used to just leave ifrit hard unless their was a caster because they had never seen the nails killed in time without the caster lb3.

[Barraind]

Separate comment: Honestly, how many people have run into toxic people you know were using a DPS parser? Forums acts like it's a widespread issue when it's not.

I kicked more people out of a top-end raiding guild in EQ for refusing to wear a haste item as a paladin, or not knowing what their ratios were on different healing abilities than I have in every game I've played combined for having low, but not "you arent even trying, are you?" dps.

I've kicked dps for having lower damage than the tank or healers, but you should expect that if you're trying to do hard content.


The long and short of it is that if you expect to do harder content, you should know well above the basics for your specific role, and you should expect to be called out if you dont. You dont get to waste other people's time.

[Deviri]

Separate comment: Honestly, how many people have run into toxic people you know were using a DPS parser? Forums acts like it's a widespread issue when it's not.

Maybe not in FFXIV because it's against ToS but in a game like WoW or other MMOs were DPS meters are allowed it happens a lot. Even in WoW's infamous Raid Finder, which is a huge joke, you can find people preaching about DPS.

DPS meters can be a good thing if they're used internally; if a Static wants to run meters to adjust as they need to clear content there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes that means changing classes, sometimes that means changing your DPS in general. Having been sidelined from a raid before I know that it hurts but it was nice to see my raid group progress after they worked so hard.

The other side is when the meters are used to heckle and harass people in something like Duty Finder. The only times I've run into people not being able to meet a DPS check in when content first comes out. Engles comes to mind. Even in Party Finder it should come down to "Your DPS is too low, here's proof, goodbye."

DPS meters aren't the issue, it's common human decency and learning to not be rude.

[Senn]

I want a personal dps meter. I just want to see my own damage.

[Fourbestintoner]

This game has the worst toxic casuals I have ever seen.

[Melichoir]

...DPS meters aren't the issue, it's common human decency and learning to not be rude.

Pretty much this. DPS meters are not inherently toxic, it's all about the person behind them. Even if SE were to go on a crusade to kill Parsing and succeeded, people inclined to be toxic would just find other ways to gate and be toxic. Imagine going into an instance or a dungeon and and after a moment the other 3 players start trash talking you cause you dont have BiS, or your melds are not BIS, or whatever. People tend to forget (as there are a lot of former wow players here) that back in the day on wow, to get into a group you had to link your achieve. If you didnt have it, well sucks to suck but you arent going with that group.

It's not a parser issue, and YoshiP even said as much. It's a harassment issue, and that is all about the player, not the tool.