Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Quor]

You're right. They do lead to toxicity, and I am thrilled that you and the team are adamant about keeping a meter out of the game. Thank you for your stalwart position on this matter.

[Lium]

I'm sure this will lead to constructive and reasonable posts.

[Penthea]

I'm sure this will lead to constructive and reasonable posts.

My favourite thing is that some people think SE's stance has changed.

It hasn't. They only repeated what they have been saying the whole time, and added some details to elaborate on some things. Nothing has changed.

[StriderShinryu]

One thing that really seems to be evident throughout this thread and others like it is that many players just want the game itself to give some sort of indication of how the players are doing. It doesn't have to be a complete in game parser. It could be anything from just a personal letter grade at the end of an instance to some sort of full on trial/gate test to a full in game parser, but it just needs to be built into the game.

This would make it so that the game itself is providing the guidance and would remove the onus on other players to try to help others but risk being called out for it. Some players just don't have the ability to help others constructively, and some people who receive help take any little bit of even the most polite advice as a great offense. So remove the onus from being on the players.

Sure, this isn't going to solve the problem of some players being jerks, and it's not going to solve the problem of unqualified players trying to be carried, but nothing you can do is going to completely fix that.

[SaitoHikari]

If people want to get more technical, those who have translated his comments say that he specifically mentions that while he won't condone the use of third party programs, SE isn't really concerned if you have a window showing a DPS meter since that just collects data from the game's battle log and doesn't provide any advantages otherwise. Any incidents stemming from use of a parser shouldn't be considered a cheating problem, but a harassment issue. And it's for that reason that SE won't ever support an official parser.

They will, however, strictly punish use of third party programs that directly affect gameplay, such as automatically placing markers and altering AoE indicators, such as making invisible AoEs visible. (I saw something related to the latter about a month or two ago when videos and screenshots of that made their rounds through the NA community with everyone wondering what the hell they were seeing. I think it originated from one of the Asian playerbases, though. Don't know which one.)

So really, he elaborated what we all already knew. Nothing wrong with that, but I kind of get the impression that the early parts of the live letter were more directed at the Japanese audience, as the whole third party program arguments from recent understanding blew up in a big way over there ever since the TEA world first clear, and especially with that footage that made the rounds through the raid community a while ago. (Especially since this Live Letter wasn't officially translated. In normal circumstances, something this important as it concerns the community as a whole should have been, but I figure SE knows the NA/EU community has already been through this song and dance.)

[Moonlite]

snip

If the translation is correct from discord/reddit. I would think the OP might have been leaning towards the comment about how they lead to toxicity. It was a pretty straight statement about how it gets used by the masses when widely implemented.

"It will turn everything toxic, we won't implement one. EVER!"

[ForteNightshade]

You mean that stance where they still allow them despite it being against their ToS but instead of allowing people to actually talk about a problem, they'll silently kick whomever is holding the group back?

[Billythepancake]

You mean that stance where they still allow them despite it being against their ToS but instead of allowing people to actually talk about a problem, they'll silently kick whomever is holding the group back?

Yeah, instead of being able to tell someone where and why they're messing up, or just that they're messing up in general, you just have to shut up and deal with the ninja pulling 3k dps or kick them and just say "difference in play styles bro" so they don't know they need to improve. It's a dumb system and actually encourages more toxicity, because you can't communicate with people because doing so is you admitting you're using tools you shouldn't be.

[QT_Melon]

Yeah, instead of being able to tell someone where and why they're messing up, or just that they're messing up in general, you just have to shut up and deal with the ninja pulling 3k dps or kick them and just say "difference in play styles bro" so they don't know they need to improve. It's a dumb system and actually encourages more toxicity, because you can't communicate with people because doing so is you admitting you're using tools you shouldn't be.

Or you can say in a general sense that the DPS check was not being met, and encourage people to check themselves at the Stone Sea Sky/Lawns to make sure they're able to complete the content without having to single one person out.

[ForteNightshade]

Tbh.
He is right honestly.
His example of what people would do is pretty accurate if we had a parse tool.
People would demand you pull a certain amount of dps in pf.

Some people would probably kick you because they think you're not doing enough because you're not pulling what a SR group gotten.

People can do the mental gymnastics all they want on why being official will be a good thing ,but the fact is the game will be more toxic if parsing was in the game officially.

People would openly mock your dps because everybody can see it.
You can say "well they need to get good" but some people generally are trying but can't reach that expectation.

Seeing their low dps would just be demoralizing to certain people and they would probably quit or feel really bad about themselves.

I know a lot of people that try to get better but just are not able.

The idea there would be a rampart increase in toxicity is nonsense. Initially? Sure. But if SE did their due diligence and banned the players who genuinely harassed others, things would inevitably settle down.

And what does it matter if people put requirements to join their parties. No one is entitled to clear. If parsers were allowed publicly and I asked for players above 80%. Why isn't that okay? I'm not being rude about it. I simply want a specific skill range to clear this particular fight faster for whatever reason. People already do this now; either outright putting "parse run" in the PF description or something like "kill before Quietus/Black Smokers." If you join those parties and aren't able to keep up, people have a right to be upset with you. Now that doesn't mean they should threaten you or say something like "pls uninstall". But someone their damage is too low isn't harassment.

Or you can say in a general sense that the DPS check was not being met, and encourage people to check themselves at the Stone Sea Sky/Lawns to make sure they're able to complete the content without having to single one person out.

And what if it's a single person holding the group back? Why do we have to dance around the subject because Billy can't handle being told his DPS is too low for E4S.