Thread: The Patch 5.2 Discussion Thread! (Spoilers)

Yes, I think Zenos hit on something regarding tempering...

And it is the relative strength of the Primals now versus what Zodiark and Hydaelyn were/are that makes a difference. Also, with someone "inside" of them, serving as their "heart"/core, it really is up in the air how similar the tempering their summoners experienced is to the usual variety. At the least we know it functions so as to spread the Primal's element/energy form by creating an energy transmission network, but it may not be a case of subverting the tempered's own will, to the usual degree.

The Echo seems to be a fragment of "the ability to inflict one's will on reality via aether". It is probably core to the Asican's ability to use creation magic. Therefore results could depend on the person using it, their particular talents, skills and experience, as well as what they are using it on etc. Considering Zodiark was summoned to restore order in a world being torn apart by uncontrolled creation magic (regardless on if that was the origin of Terminus or not), him being able to "temper" (exert order and control over) Ascians as a source of that magic is not surprising. As others of posited Zodiark's ability to "temper" could have been an unintended side effect of his purpose. Meaning that Zodiark was summoned to restore order not to control people's wills, but having no limits on his ability to control creation magic also allowed him control the source of that magic--the Ascians themselves.

Hydaelyn might not be able to temper as we know it but instead empowers people simply because she was summoned specifically as a counter to Zodiark so the ability to control creation magic was unneeded. There was, however, a need for a few to be able to overcome many.

All primals that we know of since the crystals were summoned as a result of Asican instruction. These instructions that might have deliberately designed and included a way to allow them to bind their worshipers to their will but not "control creation magic" so it could be overcome by the Echo. Basically we might be dealing with two separate but related phenomena that have similar effects but different origins and are therefore being mislabeled as being one.

Edit:
Just a random thought: Hydealyn has shown the ability to put "shields" around the Echo during the fight with Iggy and Lahabrea. Perhaps she has the ability to deny creation magic and insist no, this is reality not that. Zodiark controls while Hydaelyn negates--different methods to achieve similar ends. Perhaps her blessing instead of empowering her chosen is just negating/weakening the power of every Ascian or Primal we fight.

Originally Posted by Naria

All primals that we know of since the crystals were summoned as a result of Asican instruction. These instructions that might have deliberately designed and included a way to allow them to bind their worshipers to their will but not "control creation magic" so it could be overcome by the Echo. Basically we might be dealing with two separate but related phenomena that have similar effects but different origins and are therefore being mislabeled as being one.

I'm not necessarily convinced that the purpose of tempering is mind control, per se, and I don't really believe the Convocation would have seen a need for such a thing since Zodiark would be on hand to put down any stray monstrosities that arose in the world itself.

Rather, given that Primals need aether, I think the purpose of it is to integrate the tempered into its energy network. I'm not entirely sure on the "how" of it yet, but it fits with what we learnt in 5.1. I think it is a side-effect of aspecting the tempered towards the Primal's element, but just that - a byproduct of which more unscrupulous Primals, like Bahamut, take advantage. I'm also under the impression that a lot of what we're familiar with about tempering and Primals is to do with the earlier stages of it, and the same goes for Sin Eaters. You may be right about the beast tribes using defective or very basic rituals, and so we may be familiar with a very unrepresentative, or rather, basic sample set. In the end, Hydaelyn and Zodiark are unusual in that both have a person in their "heart", and the entire world's aether to subsist upon. For Primals in general, my suspicion as to how the tempering helps is by providing a reliable source of aether until they reach a certain baseline where they stabilise - by spreading their element, they're able to secure more and more of it. I've yet to see evidence that Hydaelyn does not herself temper, and it may not be the sinister thing we think of it anyway. I thought the French version of Emet's dialogue was pretty interesting on this as it expands a little bit more than the NA version:

“Do you remember it now? You wouldn’t have also forgotten that once beast-tribes summon their Primals on the Source, they become symbiotic with their energy and become ‘subjugated’ huh? Reassure me, you’re starting to worry me!”

“Well, the process is exactly the same for us. Simply put, those who believe they can withstand the influence of such a disproportionately powerful being will only be severely disappointed.”

“That’s how the Ascians became the energy transmission belts of Zordiark, my young friend! Our existence has only one purpose: to amplify and extend the part of Darkness in the whole universe.”

Source.

Of course this could be wrong, but the energy benefit to the Primal here is hard to deny.

Just a random thought: Hydealyn has shown the ability to put "shields" around the Echo during the fight with Iggy and Lahabrea. Perhaps she has the ability to deny creation magic and insist no, this is reality not that. Zodiark controls while Hydaelyn negates--different methods to achieve similar ends. Perhaps her blessing instead of empowering her chosen is just negating/weakening the power of every Ascian or Primal we fight.

It's certainly possible that it is something like that. Let's assume that the dissenters, rightly or wrongly (because it is entirely possible that they erred in their diagnosis), believed that uncontrolled Creation magicks were the issue, or that even the mere existence of this power was a risk. In that case, it wasn't so much that they believed the ancients should cede way to the new life for any supposed moral reasons, but just because they don't possess the same latent potential and thus don't pose the same threat (idk, maybe they thought this would be a "permanent" solution.) So they propose attaching another Primal to Zodiark, or even modifying him, so as to be able to exert some limiting effect on the product of their Creation magicks. You can immediately see why the Convocation might not be keen on this idea; whilst the Bureau of the Architect regulated which concepts could be used (and some Amaurotines thought it was stifling creativity in the process), it would be a different thing entirely to entrust such power - because it is effectively that - to a Primal, and possibly even to Zodiark, even if they revered him for what he did. Meanwhile, if the departed member of the Convocation did not like Primals to begin with (whether they were MIA at the time or not*), one that went a step further and limited their race's main tool in building their great civilisation may have come across as a particularly inelegant solution.

On the other hand, she was unable to do anything like this until you managed to significantly weaken Lahabrea and Igeyorhm, and certainly seemed totally incapable of doing it with Hades (hence the "you have no power over me!" lines if that's what it was about.) She was weaker than Zodiark and I would surmise in her original form, too weak to do anything like this to the ancients. So perhaps the idea wasn't so much to "check" Zodiark but to supplant him with what they perceived to be their superior solution. As an aside, surely they must have also surmised that, with him being in the star itself, the power to sunder would risk fracturing the entire star? Elidibus mentioned the summoners intended to wipe any memory of the ancient world on top of it... still, it may have been unintended.

I also think there is a hint of irony in a Primal created and sustained through creation magicks determining such things to not be "reality". We saw how Ryne ended up when attempting to become the vessel of a Primal - who's to say both Venat and original Elidibus did not end up entertaining similar delusions once they became locked in their war? In the end, with the entire world comprising aether, the products resulting from its manipulation are very much reality, but arrived at through specific configurations of aether. Perhaps the risk with the Primals wasn't so much the tempering, but the fact that they take on a life of their own, although I'll grant they're both rather unusual for Primals, so the jury is still out on that.

*Where I'm going with the MIA thing is that there is the possibility that the 14th took it upon themselves to investigate things a bit more closely within the Underworld itself, which would be a logical place to go looking for any causes of this sound given that it originated there - the dialogue within Anamnesis leaves it vague as to whether they were unavailable, or uninterested, but I hope other language versions might shed some light on it. As for the Underworld, Hades's short story is interesting in that it suggests it was out of the Ancients' control and something of which they only had glimpses. So one possibility is that the 14th was seeking out a solution to avoid the need for summoning a Primal, but things escalated rapidly, and not only did one end up being summoned, but two, with the world being shattered!