Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[Valic]

Whether you're casual, hardcore, savage raider, pvper, or brand new to the game. I'm noticing a huge rise in players who just outright refuse to give a damn about anything they do or absolutely never learned. Content is getting easier, it's a given even when considering the change over these last 2 expansions in how mechanics are done and movement with the new job gauges. Many jobs got hit with a bomb that makes them as simple as the one next to it without even trying. Solo instances/quests that once demanded the player learned their job and how to optimize to succeed now offer not just "easy" when failed... but "VERY EASY". Savage was made "more accessible" despite the content being created for the very purpose of being difficult and providing a genuine challenge to players who seeked more than just the standard MSQ/side content.

The hall of novice is off to the side, not required to actually complete at any point. PVP while not FFXIV's strong suit, still offers nothing along the lines of a tutorial in game(not even so much as an NPC detailing each mode like how Mahjong in Gold Saucer details every rule). At no point now is a player "required" to understand their full kit and why they should be using even half of the skills.

How does this affect me? I don't care about others.

YOU'RE RIGHT. Why should you care? When you can just spam a single button to proceed through a quest or a dungeon and make your party suffer... what matters? You get what you want without having to try right? It's all gonna be old content at some point anyways, just wait until new gear comes out and let the rest of your group carry you through and bam you don't need any effort to expend or get better. You don't need to earn anything, simply your presence and hitting the 1 key is more than enough and you don't have to try worth a damn.

It's this exact mentality that's condoning players to set the standard on how to succeed lower and lower every day. PVP, you're rewarded with what you want win or lose, so why try? Pve, you lose? That's okay, the game will make it brain dead so you don't have to pay attention. Can't do an EX or savage for that mount you're eyeballing? Np, just wait an expansion when gear will allow you to steamroll through it with some randoms who just as well don't know what a mechanic is. Why bother to learn if someone else is going to hold your hand and pick you up through all of it anyways? Why would YOU need to improve or learn? It's not like you want a challenge you can be proud of, just gimme gimme gimme my items and I'll be on my way!

You're exaggerating a bit don'tcha think?

No. I'm not. Majority of people act as if this is fine and move on because this isn't some urgent circumstance to take immediate action. That's my biggest issue with the circumstances of this and why every thread made here about this subject is subjected to "lol ok" replies. We're going to sit on it, let players believe they ARE doing their best and don't need to improve. After all, if it ain't broke, don't fix it right? It's raking in players and making it so braindead that effort isn't consideration anymore, what's the matter then? EXACTLY. SE is dumbing down so many aspects of this game and we're just sitting here allowing players to get worse and worse. Accepting this as "the new normal" for whatever we do. So... where's my proof this is going to keep getting worse?

We all remember the SB raids right? How many alliances simply "couldn't do it" to the point of disbanding the instance because there's this idea that you just need better gear and then you'll be fine.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...nna_be_nerfed/

Read many of the comments in that thread to see where that's going. 6 Months ago or not, guess what'll happen to the Neir raids in just a lil while because people don't wanna learn something as simple as a "pattern" or use something like "mitigation" or anything that requires thought process. Whenever it's outside of moogle tomestone events, there's plenty of people queue'ing for labyrinth of the ancients, exploiting the duty finder just to get a "quick and easy" gain for lack of effort. We also received a percentage BUFF per different role in a party to set in the whole "you don't need the META of jobs together to clear" concept... This in return has made everything unbearably simplified. While I appreciate the latter effort in an attempt to allow diversity in groups, I can't help but feel the implementation has taken a toll on the general concept of learning how to adapt with individuals in a party.

K, ur dumb.

That's very well and fine. Everyone's allowed their own opinion. That said, the next time you're healing and see a tank without their stance on, not using mitigation or a fundamental skill of their job, thus making your life difficult... Enjoy. The same with every dps that absolutely refuses to do a mechanic in favor of "dps". As well the same you find your dps aren't using aoes in trash pulls, but instead are hitting 1-2-3 per enemy of that 12 pack of mobs you just pulled. When it comes time for people to have to learn how to get better, or a circumstance will call for casual content such as a simple MSQ dungeon or instance to REQUIRE you to use more than 10% of your job's kit.... That's okay. Because you don't need to improve remember? People will go to social media, complain about that content being "too difficult", and it will get some form of change either directly or indirectly because we've accepted that poor performance is acceptable. So much for feeling rewarded in completing a challenge through your own skill. Just play that electronic simon says, if it has too many colors for you to process, we'll just remove them until there's one button that prevents you from being able to lose.

TL;DR: SE doesn't want us to "get gud". There's no need to anymore ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[MitsukiKimura]

I haven't really came across people that just try to be carried in content. Most people I see do put effort into getting whatever they need done. As far as the PVP thing goes, winning does award you more Wolf marks than losing so there is incentive to win but even if you don't you still get something. People will have their own "Meta" regardless but it is less of a problem now than what it was. Party finders were class locked more often to having a Dragoon, bard in the party more than often. You could be a skilled RDM but it wouldn't matter. I've rarely come across people not using their tank stance, most players I've seen pop it on after a couple of hits or as soon as the dungeon begins. Sometimes I "Might" see it if they have a recent returning player icon or a sprout icon above their heads, in that case it's perfectly normal, they could just need a reminder or a pat on the back about it. MSQ dungeon if you're talking about the Praetorium or the other one, you're only level 50. There's not much of a kit available at your class level. All the dungeons that you unlock from the MSQ are very easy and quick to learn them, I don't think I've ran into a party that I've had a problem with completing it. Not saying you're just making all this up, just in my personal experience is all.

[Valic]

I haven't really came across people that just try to be carried in content. Most people I see do put effort into getting whatever they need done. As far as the PVP thing goes, winning does award you more Wolf marks than losing so there is incentive to win but even if you don't you still get something. People will have their own "Meta" regardless but it is less of a problem now than what it was. Party finders were class locked more often to having a Dragoon, bard in the party more than often. You could be a skilled RDM but it wouldn't matter. I've rarely come across people not using their tank stance, most players I've seen pop it on after a couple of hits or as soon as the dungeon begins. Sometimes I "Might" see it if they have a recent returning player icon or a sprout icon above their heads, in that case it's perfectly normal, they could just need a reminder or a pat on the back about it. MSQ dungeon if you're talking about the Praetorium or the other one, you're only level 50. There's not much of a kit available at your class level. All the dungeons that you unlock from the MSQ are very easy and quick to learn them, I don't think I've ran into a party that I've had a problem with completing it. Not saying you're just making all this up, just in my personal experience is all.

I'm not talking about specifically MSQ roulette, I mean everything to progress through the MSQ. Also if time is the only difference in me getting wolf marks from having to try and win vs basically doing nothing and losing.... then what's the point of trying? Just queue in and get the thing, it'll be a couple times but, you still get what you want regardless? I've seen tanks who act as though they need to toggle their stance for swaps, toggle them mid pull, or for some reason turn them off mid dungeon and don't understand why their healer is being attacked by 5 different things at once.

take the 100 pvp wins for the new frontlines mount. It's 1/3 you get a team of people who genuinely want to try and win that actually do... so you just queue on a whim that you're on that side, and regardless of your effort, you either get it or don't. Now, assume the reward was based off of say, doing an accumulated amount of damage while in frontlines or for getting 1000 kills. THEN you'd notice people who want that mount would be actively trying to get it by TRYING to accomplish the feat. If you get it regardless of your effort, it's not really an achievement is it? It's more of a "it happened.... here ya go".

Also I won't start on the level/MSQ skips, I've always believed those should be restricted to accounts that have already progressed through the main story at least once. Or who have at least one character a a minimum level requirement to buy a skip. Im not against them and I don't find them pay to win, but they definitely don't help with people "not learning".

[MitsukiKimura]

I'm not talking about specifically MSQ roulette, I mean everything to progress through the MSQ. Also if time is the only difference in me getting wolf marks from having to try and win vs basically doing nothing and losing.... then what's the point of trying? Just queue in and get the thing, it'll be a couple times but, you still get what you want regardless? I've seen tanks who act as though they need to toggle their stance for swaps, toggle them mid pull, or for some reason turn them off mid dungeon and don't understand why their healer is being attacked by 5 different things at once.

take the 100 pvp wins for the new frontlines mount. It's 1/3 you get a team of people who genuinely want to try and win that actually do... so you just queue on a whim that you're on that side, and regardless of your effort, you either get it or don't. Now, assume the reward was based off of say, doing an accumulated amount of damage while in frontlines or for getting 1000 kills. THEN you'd notice people who want that mount would be actively trying to get it by TRYING to accomplish the feat. If you get it regardless of your effort, it's not really an achievement is it? It's more of a "it happened.... here ya go".

Also I won't start on the level/MSQ skips, I've always believed those should be restricted to accounts that have already progressed through the main story at least once. Or who have at least one character a a minimum level requirement to buy a skip. Im not against them and I don't find them pay to win, but they definitely don't help with people "not learning".

There's been some instances where I've seen people complain about the fight with Ra jit and that fight still hasn't been changed. Point of trying to win is more wolf marks and getting what you want quicker than having to do it over and over again. Rarely will I see people just sit and do nothing. As far as your encounters with tanks like that, can't say I've ran into that. Also I believe trying to get 1000 kills would be more of a struggle, you'd have people snip each other for kills and that would just create a whole mess of frustration. MSQ skips are completely fine, level skips however do give a little incentive to "Hey you're so and so level but do seek guidance about the class". People don't always learn the same way. Some learn through leveling, some learn through guides, or through kind enough people that offer advice. I learned a few classes just by being in Palace of the dead since it auto levels you with your skills to 60. I'm not saying they're perfectly fine by any means, I do however feel like it's just a nice thing having that option to be able to buy one because I'm dreading even thinking about leveling my Monk. It is still level 34.

[AngelCheese77]

There's been some instances where I've seen people complain about the fight with Ra jit and that fight still hasn't been changed.

The problems with the fight with Ran'jit is that you fight him with a character you aren't used to doing, and that it takes pretty much perfect timing to get certain skills off to use. My husband had to do that fight multiple times, and even on lower difficulty (though he has a handicap which can make certain things in a battle difficult). I was able to do it on the first try on Normal, but there was a LOT of buttclenching moments and lots of cursing.

[Mahoukenshi]

I'm not talking about specifically MSQ roulette, I mean everything to progress through the MSQ. Also if time is the only difference in me getting wolf marks from having to try and win vs basically doing nothing and losing.... then what's the point of trying? Just queue in and get the thing, it'll be a couple times but, you still get what you want regardless? I've seen tanks who act as though they need to toggle their stance for swaps, toggle them mid pull, or for some reason turn them off mid dungeon and don't understand why their healer is being attacked by 5 different things at once.

take the 100 pvp wins for the new frontlines mount. It's 1/3 you get a team of people who genuinely want to try and win that actually do... so you just queue on a whim that you're on that side, and regardless of your effort, you either get it or don't. Now, assume the reward was based off of say, doing an accumulated amount of damage while in frontlines or for getting 1000 kills. THEN you'd notice people who want that mount would be actively trying to get it by TRYING to accomplish the feat. If you get it regardless of your effort, it's not really an achievement is it? It's more of a "it happened.... here ya go".

Also I won't start on the level/MSQ skips, I've always believed those should be restricted to accounts that have already progressed through the main story at least once. Or who have at least one character a a minimum level requirement to buy a skip. Im not against them and I don't find them pay to win, but they definitely don't help with people "not learning".

The point of trying is -- outside of accomplishing things faster -- the neat psychological concept of intrinsic motivation, even though its value may have become less important with the ever famous "path of least resistance" which I cannot deny myself all the time, to be honest. It's technically the same reason why many raiders do raid if their opinion is to be taken geniunenly: reward comes at 2nd place, and the intrinsic motivation of completing a challenge takes precedence. For PvPers, it's allegedly the concept itself of beating human players who have ideally equal skills. Again, the path of last resistance does still exist, for better of worse, not to talk about the step below that - "leeching". Yet for the perfect harmony, espcially in gear-only progression settings, even the most intrinsically motivated raider would eventually reach their patience's limit if no better gear (or flashy mount) were available. It's afterall an endless loop of beating content and get better gear > better gear for beating upcoming harder content > rinse and repeat.

[Yeshes]

Yet for the perfect harmony, espcially in gear-only progression settings, even the most intrinsically motivated raider would eventually reach their patience's limit if no better gear (or flashy mount) were available. It's afterall an endless loop of beating content and get better gear > better gear for beating upcoming harder content > rinse and repeat.

Infinite progress against an unwinnable goal = MMO game foundation #1 (Economics calls this the "Red Queen" dilemma.)

Behavioral conditioning to favor theorycrafting and completionism as a means to drive subscriptions (i.e., Status = Time, Reputation = Completion %, etc)

The singular plaint over time being that new players get an easier time of it; accurate, and as predictable as the sunrise. The only way to continue acquisition of players is to expand access to content, lower requirements for completion, and essentially sacrifice veteran "pride" to effectively level the playing field to the point that everyone is as close to "the end" of the game as possible (i.e., as far from it as the design can push or gate them).

That includes simplifying and/or bridging previously gated content when required (context: to support new player acquisition).

Players arrive with the assumptions that their respective history of experience in playing games have given them. Game developers and publishers are actually very good at using new player apathy to debride and whittle away at veteran pride (basically the focus of this OP's complaint).

Personally, I take outbursts like this as par for a very normal and historically demonstrable course.

I love mmo games but I am a poor player due to physical limitations so I only go on the challenging stuff if/when I know I'm with people who understand that we can't all be reflex perfect raid machines.

Or people who understand that people are more important than any of these infinitely regenerated pixels that we're playing with.... complaining about "what is" takes time away from enjoyment regardless... a choice, but not the one I would normally select for myself.

There is another lesson here - rushing to content (and thus content exhaustion) is a significant part of your current experience causes - personally, I play one to two expansions behind current precisely because I game on my terms, for my enjoyment, and if there isn't a reasonable expectation of being able to enjoy the full story and a sense of completion, I don't buy it.

TL;DR - MMO games ask you to accept their definitions for success because it puts you on their revenue treadmill. That doesn't mean you have to stay on them, but if you do, you really need to understand you're ASKING for this treatment.

[Raltar]

I haven't really came across people that just try to be carried in content. Most people I see do put effort into getting whatever they need done.

I've not run a single MSQ or Alliance Raid roulette in the past 2 months where we didn't have to kick at least one person that decided to AFK at the start hoping to be carried. And they always have the same excuse "It's easy, who cares?" Yeah, it is easy, but if everyone was a piece of shit like them, no one would ever get it done because they would all be AFKing at the start, waiting for a carry by the rest of the group.

[LaylaTsarra]

I've not run a single MSQ or Alliance Raid roulette in the past 2 months where we didn't have to kick at least one person that decided to AFK at the start hoping to be carried. And they always have the same excuse "It's easy, who cares?" Yeah, it is easy, but if everyone was a piece of shit like them, no one would ever get it done because they would all be AFKing at the start, waiting for a carry by the rest of the group.

I run tons of duties including roulettes and people rarely need to be kicked. Some might leave upon entry but it's rare in any duties i run on my main and many alts where someone needs to be kicked because they're not contributing or afk'ing.

[Flay_wind]

I think one of the bigest problems in FFXIV is that it's follows very rigid formula in the patch cycle and there's no real incentive to do any hard content at all. There's no reward in it, that would stay relevant for more than a few months. When the next tier gets released you would be able to get gear on par or even better than previous Savage tier with much less effort required.
Aside from EX Trials and Savage Raid, which are simply bosses, dungeons themselves are very easy. They are simply corridors with mobs you pull and AoE down. Dungeon bosses usually follow the strict formula of Tankbuster/Group wide damage/Unique Boss Mechanic. Repeat.
Take for example one of the most reviled dungeons in FFXIV full of morbols and yellow acid.
First room has patrolling mobs that are dangeous on their own, toads that can yank you from your safe position to them and likely into aggro range of said patrolling mobs. Dangerous terrain. It kinda mellows out in mobs density after the first boss, but still it can be unpleasant. Bad Breath is attack you do not want to get hit by in any circumstances. And bosses are more complex than usual dungeon bosses.
Personally AV is one of my favourite dungeons exactly because it has all of that. Because you can't run through it mindlessly pushing buttons. But SE decided that it does not want hard content in dungeons, becuase that would be "too stressful".