Serious Point Allocation Discussion

[kro]

PLD's primary stat for auto-attack damage should be changed to VIT instead of STR.

When you look at all other melees, their primary and secondary stats are also their highest stats. PLD's highest stat is VIT followed by MND. Their AF gives VIT and MND. Heavy Darklight gear is all VIT. Nothing a PLD is intended to use has STR on it.

Whatever you do, don't pump DEX. Blocking doesn't do a whole lot for damage mitigation, you can increase block rate to 100% for 33% of the time with Divine Veil, and adding DEX has no noticeable effect on Accuracy.

[SionDurant]

PLD's primary stat for auto-attack damage should be changed to VIT instead of STR.

When you look at all other melees, their primary and secondary stats are also their highest stats. PLD's highest stat is VIT followed by MND. Their AF gives VIT and MND. Heavy Darklight gear is all VIT. Nothing a PLD is intended to use has STR on it.

Whatever you do, don't pump DEX. Blocking doesn't do a whole lot for damage mitigation, you can increase block rate to 100% for 33% of the time with Divine Veil, and adding DEX has no noticeable effect on Accuracy.

Well,

Paladin's primary is MND, so I guess they could flip flop it and make VIT primary and MND secondary.

[TirionCrey]

MND does make a more noticeable difference for Cures. While it may not be a huge difference, +30 MND over +30 STR will create noticeable increases in HP cured by both Cure and Holy Succor. I have yet to test it, but just from eyeball observations last night I would not be surprised if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor.

MND adds "Healing Stat Potency"...so it's obvious that it effects Holly Succor and Cure, since it does the same on WHM. Though direct Healing Magic Pot effects it more then MND.

[Kiara]

The point is though, is dex does increase block rate, and GLA/PLD is the only job in the game that is actually going to even think about going after block rate, casters sure as heck don't care about it. So why even make a stat effect block and why let us allocate stats if there isn't some grand reason to do so. If these stats are just plain better than these stats then why is the point of this system?! To give us some kind of false sense of customization when there is none...thats dumb.

Furthermore the point of my post is to show that PLD is spread much more thin than WAR is. WAR is more successful because they can just balls to the walls go for 2 stats and thats all their job relies on, our job however relies on almost 3 times as many stats. I'm not saying we need to put points in them, but they can increase practically everything they do with 2 stats, we however have to be content with just letting most of our stats go in favor of something more potent, ergo we are spread thin on our needs. What would a world look like if we could increase our damage, MP pool, Block Rate and damage mitigation with MND?

As it stands WAR gets to increase with VIT : damage mitigation, HP pool, and damage all in one stat. VIT helps them hold hate through dmg, take dmg through mitigation, and survive with a high HP pool. STR is just icing on the cake. It's literally everything the job needs. If we could put points in MND to increase everything a PLD needs it would be a better job. That is my 2 cents. I could be wrong, but it seems like if MND was for PLD what VIT is for WAR we may not even be having this discussion.

If we aren't going to use point allocation to make unique builds then take it out of the game, it's pointless. Just give every job 2 stats that increase everything they can possibly do, and boost those stats beyond others every even level, that would go a long way towards making jobs balanced. (IMO)

Hi Sortis,

Definitely some good points and something I noticed as well when they were first announcing the key stats per Class / Job.

There is a *fundamental* design (flaw) advantage with making Strength (STR) and Vitality (VIT) the 2 primary stats on Warrior whereas for Paladin it's Mind (MND) and Strength (STR), unless SE decides to adjust the base Defense / VIT on Paladin when you switch over.

As you said, having VIT be a Warrior's primary stat means it helps increase their Auto Attack Damage (and potentially WS damage (TBD)), *and* it inherently increases HP, helps with Damage Mitigation, and as Kaeko's testing notes, it helps with Magic Defense in some way as well(!).

For Paladin (who is supposedly *the* Tank (its unique "characteristic" is supposed to be a Defensive "rock" / foundation (it's certainly not a Damage Dealer)), they make it so bonuses are in STR and MND, and in addition to that, they then have to focus some points into VIT (for HP, higher Defense, Magic Defense (from Kaeko's testing notes)), and potentially DEX (but as many have pointed out sadly, it doesn't help much with Blocking at all)).

There's definitely an inherent advantage and it's easier for a Warrior to just focus on dumping points (and Materia) into STR and VIT only.

Now if Yoshida-san and team actually made a fundamental adjustment so that when you switch over to Paladin Job, you gain a noticeable Defense and/or VIT Boost (inherent with the Job itself), then this problem would be solved.

Why they don't give Paladins an inherent higher Defense / VIT Rating is a bit baffling IMO (or change the formulas to calculate Damage or Blocking for Shields).

[FraenirVolsung]

MND adds "Healing Stat Potency"...so it's obvious that it effects Holly Succor and Cure, since it does the same on WHM. Though direct Healing Magic Pot effects it more then MND.

Correct, but my point was not to state the obvious. I am still in the process of testing it, but I believe from what I have done so far that MND may be an additional modifier for Holy Succor outside of just what MND contributes to Healing Potency, ala how MND is a modifier for Flat Blade for example.

I am currently gathering a larger sample size before I will make any conclusions, but the trend in my presently small sample size is showing that adding a large amount of MND is creating higher numbers than adding just straight Healing Potency.

What I have been doing is equipping all the Healing Potency items I have and then casting Holy Succor with enough dmg taken that I do not hit my max HP when cast. Next, I'm taking off all Healing Potency items and equipping enough MND so that my Healing Potency is equal to that of when I'm wearing my Healing Pot gear. I am also repeating the process but casting Cure instead of Holy Succor with each gear set. If Holy Succor was based solely on Healing Potency the numbers should be equal whether I'm in the Healing Pot gear set or the MND gear set. So far, the trend is that the MND set is giving the higher average amount cured. With casting Cure, the average is almost identical regardless of gear set throughout the admittedly small sample size thus far. The sample size is still too small to draw any conclusions, but if this trend holds true over a much larger sample size, I think the conclusion would be that MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor whereas other Cure spells may be based solely on Healing Magic Potency.

I'll post back with results once I have a chance to gather more data.

[SionDurant]

Correct, but my point was not to state the obvious. I am still in the process of testing it, but I believe from what I have done so far that MND may be an additional modifier for Holy Succor outside of just what MND contributes to Healing Potency, ala how MND is a modifier for Flat Blade for example.

I am currently gathering a larger sample size before I will make any conclusions, but the trend in my presently small sample size is showing that adding a large amount of MND is creating higher numbers than adding just straight Healing Potency.

What I have been doing is equipping all the Healing Potency items I have and then casting Holy Succor with enough dmg taken that I do not hit my max HP when cast. Next, I'm taking off all Healing Potency items and equipping enough MND so that my Healing Potency is equal to that of when I'm wearing my Healing Pot gear. I am also repeating the process but casting Cure instead of Holy Succor with each gear set. If Holy Succor was based solely on Healing Potency the numbers should be equal whether I'm in the Healing Pot gear set or the MND gear set. So far, the trend is that the MND set is giving the higher average amount cured. With casting Cure, the average is almost identical regardless of gear set throughout the admittedly small sample size thus far. The sample size is still too small to draw any conclusions, but if this trend holds true over a much larger sample size, I think the conclusion would be that MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor whereas other Cure spells may be based solely on Healing Magic Potency.

I'll post back with results once I have a chance to gather more data.

I appreciate your work here, look forward to seeing the results.

Regardless, tanking role aside, MND is our most " powerful statistic " I say that carefully because I know that it doesn't necessarily mean its the silver bullet for our issues, but it's the only one I have tested personally, STR aside as I have not tested it, that effects our performance any kind of way.

Trouble with all stats across the board, DoM's aside, appears to be definitely related to the rate at which they are calculated into effects and I try to raise that argument in the main forums and get trolled on, told to learn to play etc so I dunno.

[Treach]

MND's AA bonus and WS modifier probably caps at 305-310 just like pie, vit, int, for drg, war, mnk. STR probably caps at 350 just like the other melee dd classes, not that you can feasibly reach it while still being a tank.

I'd link the post stating new caps but I closed it and lost the history when closing firefox

[FraenirVolsung]

Wanted to give some updated numbers in reference to my test to find out if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. The two gear sets I have been using are 337 MND with 428 Healing Magic Potency. Let's just call that the MND set. And 288 MND also with 428 Healing Magic Potency will be the HMP set. All other stats remained unchanged between the two gear sets.

50 casts of Holy Succor with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 876-923 with an average of 894.68. With the HMP set the range was 852-903 with an average of 878.69.

50 casts of Cure with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 468-497 with an average of 478.41. With the HMP set the range was 470-497 with an average of 478.72.

I would have liked to get those sample sizes closer to 100 with each set to have a little more statistical significance and less margin for error, but unfortunately I had other things to do this evening. What was very obvious over the course of the 100 casts I did make was that the MND set had a higher ceiling and a higher floor for Holy Succor, but the difference between sets for Cure is statistically insignificant.

I feel confident is saying that I believe MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. Ultimately Healing Magic Potency is the biggest determinant of Healing Magic, but at least in the case of Holy Succor, adding MND seems to enhance it's potency even further.

Like stated above, MND seems to be the most effective stat overall for PLD. And as Treach stated above, the benefits of MND on AA likely caps around 305-310. I have yet to test this as well, but so far the most effective DD build I have made for PLD has been with approximately 300 of each MND and STR. Using the MND build above with 337 MND required me to drop my STR to approximately 245 by removing gear. My normal solo build is 284 STR and 307 MND. In dropping STR and boosting MND to 337, AA and WS dmg dropped noticeably.

So for those seeking the most effective DD build, STR and MND in a nice balance as close to 300 as you can get each will be most effective as Treach infers above. It takes double melds and maybe a triple here and there to get both near 300, but it is doable. It's actually easier to do on GLA because you have that extra 10 STR instead of VIT when on PLD.

[SionDurant]

Wanted to give some updated numbers in reference to my test to find out if MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. The two gear sets I have been using are 337 MND with 428 Healing Magic Potency. Let's just call that the MND set. And 288 MND also with 428 Healing Magic Potency will be the HMP set. All other stats remained unchanged between the two gear sets.

50 casts of Holy Succor with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 876-923 with an average of 894.68. With the HMP set the range was 852-903 with an average of 878.69.

50 casts of Cure with each gear set: With the MND set the range was 468-497 with an average of 478.41. With the HMP set the range was 470-497 with an average of 478.72.

I would have liked to get those sample sizes closer to 100 with each set to have a little more statistical significance and less margin for error, but unfortunately I had other things to do this evening. What was very obvious over the course of the 100 casts I did make was that the MND set had a higher ceiling and a higher floor for Holy Succor, but the difference between sets for Cure is statistically insignificant.

I feel confident is saying that I believe MND is an additional modifier for Holy Succor. Ultimately Healing Magic Potency is the biggest determinant of Healing Magic, but at least in the case of Holy Succor, adding MND seems to enhance it's potency even further.

Like stated above, MND seems to be the most effective stat overall for PLD. And as Treach stated above, the benefits of MND on AA likely caps around 305-310. I have yet to test this as well, but so far the most effective DD build I have made for PLD has been with approximately 300 of each MND and STR. Using the MND build above with 337 MND required me to drop my STR to approximately 245 by removing gear. My normal solo build is 284 STR and 307 MND. In dropping STR and boosting MND to 337, AA and WS dmg dropped noticeably.

So for those seeking the most effective DD build, STR and MND in a nice balance as close to 300 as you can get each will be most effective as Treach infers above. It takes double melds and maybe a triple here and there to get both near 300, but it is doable. It's actually easier to do on GLA because you have that extra 10 STR instead of VIT when on PLD.

Thanks again,

So it really sounds like if SE gave us higher block rate calculated by VIT, mp regen probably by a trait or simply opening up blessed mind to us, higher enmity from heals cast, and a lower cd on rampart we would be just fine in groups.

War would remain the optimal aoe tank, we would remain the optimal single target tank without making us op or taking our traditional role out of context.

I am going to see about starting a thread and organizing what we'd like to see the devs do to improve the job/class overall without damaging the overall party experience.

[syntaxlies]

vit/mind 50/50 you can add dex, it might help block low lvl mobs but it wont help you in endgame.