Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[Valic]

*snip*

It matters because it teaches the bare minimum of optimization. In most group instances, a ninja could just spam the first GCD of their combo the whole time and hey, it works because it doesn't matter right? Meanwhile a solo instance demands you have the damage at times. It demands you know how to dps well enough, maybe not perfectionist/elitist quality parse checking annoyance style dps.... But at lest to do more than the minimum. Solo instances as I've said, pave the road for what's ahead. You get on a bicycle with training wheels when you start, but you never use training wheels again... However you did learn that brakes and pedals are the thing you need to know how to use. Same thing in a solo instance. You're not with a bunch of setup AI, but you're being shown how to use your job effectively and understand some simple mechanic ideas like aoes.

I'm not being a negative nancy lol. I'm simply not encouraging dumbing down the game, and I repeat... I have not once anywhere declares I'm not willing to help out or teach another player who is willing to learn. I taught Zurvan EX when it was current content even after I got the bird, I teach current savages these days, I remind tanks what mitigation is if I'm healing and notice it's a lil unstable. I don't nit pick mind you, I either wait until it is actually a noticeable issue (may cause a wipe) or they ask.

I wont get into that dispute over that other thread saying why the JP community is better than the US one, that's just rubbish for the most part.

I'm also not making a thread on "bad DF players" either if that's the implication here. I'm simply saying that SE should go more out of their way to encourage improving outside of relying on other players (whether it's being carried or having to be told at a later level how to do something they should've learned at level 10). I say this not to discourage players from asking for help when needed, but rather... that there should be some degree of self motivation or self discipline included in the game that teaches a player without their hand being held. Worst case scenario should end up being "why can't I beat this solo instance? I'm playing X job and I'm doing X" with replies of "Do you use X often enough? There's a portion where X needs this done and is actually really useful in group content". Rather than the result being to say screw it and wait until you can be carried or whine about content being too difficult and in need of a nerf.

I agree on wishing players had more patience to stay beyond the 1-2 wipes when in a learning party that was beyond those first couple weeks of blind runs and etc. Sometimes I find a stable group, sometimes I don't. In the end, most players who end up leaving out of their frustration and inability to perform is dependent on the factor that they never learned some basics. Either through fault of their own of level skipping, not reading, content not demanding increased performance, or they were simply told what to do rather than learning why to do it. I still try to help where I can these days in PF and in DF alike, but if the person is unwilling to learn through help of another player, then at that point it's either up to the game to make them see what they can improve... Or they just simply won't.

I still say it's not just the community but rather a mixed hand from the community and devs both. We can all do better, I agree... But at the same time, SE has to not cave in on ideas that support making things redundant. It'll only hurt if more is made easier to do. My focus isn't negative, but rather preventative. I think something should be done sooner rather than later to preserve the game's entirety. Not just a focus on what happens at end game, but solo instances, regular trials, regular dungeons, EX's, all of it. I would prefer more than 10% of the content to give people the feeling of a job well done, well coordinated, that was enjoyable to boot.


An example I want to give is the final boss of "Malikah's Well". The boss isn't necessarily difficulty but does require the players of the group to step up to a degree. The vulnerabilities can stack for a longer period of time, making you more prone to damage and possibly wiping if you're not careful or learn the pattern in which to dodge/move. The boss teaches you each set of mechanics one by one then puts them together like a lot of our content does. It's not so simple as to just burn it down before these mechanics happen either, so there's none of that "we can just skip it" mentality that many mmo's put as a mentality from their community. In my experiences with this boss, I either see wipes, or multiple deaths that prevent the player from actively playing(you can't enjoy your job if you're dead right? That's one consequence at least I can see out of it). However, none of them have been negative... Rather if we wipe, the party or myself will offer advice in how to go about the boss to defeat it. By the end of the dungeon, they're doing as you said, thanking each other for the help, GG's, and saying how it was fun but challenging. It wasn't just another boss to get through the day and sigh as you repeat your base GCD standing in place without feeling like having to move. It wasn't just more of the same "let's move on already" type of content that encourages a player to hit the exit asap because they just wanted their roulette done and over with. It felt enjoyable to learn and clear together, to cooperate and understand so that we could overcome something. I want more content to feel like that, rather than a burden or a carry.

However, just off that we assume I'm referring to a DF group right? Well Susano EX was a nice change to that back in the day. I remember doing him pretty late in SB, not enough to have new gear above his weapon ilvl or to be able to cheese anything... But I definitely wasn't around for the first couple weeks of his EX. Parties were wiping and discussing how mechanics had to be done, they would communicate who had what responsibilities when they showed up and what the enrage looked like if we didn't perform those mechanics depending on our role. I didn't find many toxic parties doing it or anyone who was an ass about how to do the mechanics. I did however find many players baffled at the idea of having to move with a stack marker or just refusing to mitigate damage. Majority of the time though was refusal of doing a mechanic even when told how to do it that got us wiped (such as taking the purple marker you can move with, to the other side of the platform). My point here? The content was enjoyable and demanded players perform at least to a high enough level to clear it. It wasn't ridiculously absurd in difficulty but it wasn't a cake walk either. If there was something wrong, it was something the player had to learn from to continue. I feel the game should support this so a player understands "if I don't act now because of this, we all fail" rather than "eh, they'll be fine if this happens" passivity.

[BroFists]

It rry.

could u pls stop necroing old threads thanks

[Valic]

could u pls stop necroing old threads thanks

Check the date. Literally made just a couple days ago. This isn't weeks/months old and I'm replying to a comment made literally yesterday.

[Mahrze]

could u pls stop necroing old threads thanks

Oh the irony

[QT_Melon]

No it does not teach you much in the solo instance. Just that one situational time it MAY have mattered. Yeah that Warden's Paeon was soooooo useful back at the time of release when the stupid thing had a abysmal cast time and you had to know which skill it could help cleanse, then later down the line a bard was Pacify cleanser for WAR. That my friend was dumb.

The healing and tank quests were also useless for solo instances.

You only pointed out some minor DPS thing forgetting how much time was just wasted on those solo instances where at least a guild hest did 10 times better.

You get better at the game with experience and peers. If you aren't gonna bother being a peer and making a thread blaming the devs. You ARE the problem.

[AngelCheese77]

Good or bad I just want people to own up to their mistakes and not blame other people

[Valic]

No it does not teach you much in the solo instance. Just that one situational time it MAY have mattered. Yeah that Warden's Paeon was soooooo useful back at the time of release when the stupid thing had a abysmal cast time and you had to know which skill it could help cleanse, then later down the line a bard was Pacify cleanser for WAR. That my friend was dumb.

The healing and tank quests were also useless for solo instances.

You only pointed out some minor DPS thing forgetting how much time was just wasted on those solo instances where at least a guild hest did 10 times better.

You get better at the game with experience and peers. If you aren't gonna bother being a peer and making a thread blaming the devs. You ARE the problem.

The problem is, it SHOULD teach you plenty in a solo instance. The tank instances at the time did require you to mitigate and at least do stack mechanics, but now they're a joke. Guildhests aren't really required at all either and are a joke... majority of them you can burn down without even knowing what the mechanic was.

You get better at the game when the game challenges you to get better. If it's not, you don't need to get better because what you do is passing off as fine. I'm not blaming anyone here, I'm saying the game needs to encourage getting better. Not staying below average or minimum requirement to be passable. Being a peer only does so much, there's plenty of players who make several guides teaching the most common practices like not to stay on a mount when being attacked in pvp (because it puts slow on the person). You could have youtube flooded with videos like this, but a player can completely ignore all of that regardless so long as the game doesn't urge them to see why it's important to learn why or why not they should do something.

It's why I like Wanderer's Palace HM. Doom is inflicted on a random player with the only indication on how it's cleansed is the dialogue from the boss. The dps may be at absolute perfect health and not need healing, but if a healer isn't paying attention, that doom will kill them unless they heal them regardless. Same if it's applied to the healer themselves, if they die... the party wipes and the learning begins. They wouldn't/shouldn't be able to pass if doom isn't cleansed through enough healing. If they just ignore it every pull, they don't clear the boss because they would wipe. Though this also assumes it will always at least go on the healer, if it goes on the dps only and they just ress them every time... I'm sure they'll get away with not having to learn the mechanic.

[Zazay]

...but we'll see what happens with Nier, as they implied earlier on that it will be easier overall than Orbonne.

It will be easier than Orbonne? ... That makes me sad now.

[Vulcann]

Good or bad I just want people to own up to their mistakes and not blame other people

well it has to be YOUR fault ... because if its not your fault, then it is my fault and i don't like that!

:P

[Paladinleeds]

Honestly, I think baseline content including solo duties as part of a group need to be made harder across the board. However, for those that only want the single player experience, bring the trusts out to the entire game (including old content and trials). That way people who only want the story and don't care for high performance have options. Perhaps make the trust versions a bit easier so they can be cheesed for those who don't care. But make mechanics hurt more and be more punishing when in groups.

One thing that I loved in Rath Ex (before it became unsyncable... WHY SE WHY!?) was you had 3 lives across the group. If your group had a collective total of 3 deaths, it was a wipe. Stuff like that I think would make quite a bit of difference in giving the content a bit more bite to it, so people can't just cheese through it.

The only problem i have with people are those who don't bother to watch video guides before attempting a raid/ etc. I understand that you rather "Experience" the run blind but you're wasting other peoples time and being a nuisance when you die constantly to the same thing every time and refuse to watch a simple 5 min video guide and get all defensive when asked.

My only issue with this is I have issues digesting all the information from the guide. I need a segment, then practice it, then another segment. Groups however expect you to have fully digested the guide from my understanding. It's the reason I make my own groups saying guide not required (and ironically still get told to watch a guide when my PF openly states guide not required. It's happened 2-3 times that I can remember.) I state guide not required because in extreme/savage content, the amount of information they convey to you in that guide is overwhelming, and causes information overload for me causing me to perform poorer than just going in blind. I've tested it out before as well. I get I'm a minority there but that's how it is for me, and hence I make my own PFs so people know what they're getting into. And sensory/information overload is a VERY real thing for people with autism (not all, but from my experiences it's a general trend), and it frankly sucks.

EDIT: And since I know someone is going to say "Well you haven't done Savage"... my reasoning for wanting more baseline difficulty is because the game doesn't really do a good job of a difficulty curve. If there's a higher baseline difficulty, then other things can be brought up in accordance to create a tighter and better difficulty curve going from MSQ -> Normal raids (I guess) -> 24 man raids -> Extreme trials -> Savage -> Ultimate. Right now there seems to be some big jumps in difficulty (I cannot speak for Savage -> Ultimate though, never tried an Ultimate, but I did partially complete Savage Deltascape and Sigmascape when they were current, albeit with a static). I think low baseline difficulty creates an issue there as it's harder to create a smooth difficulty curve with the available content we get.