Fighting Desperately...

[Enfarious]

I can see that you love to level up, I know many many Korean grind hell games you would love
...
Modern gamers (some old some young) are just not going to stand for it anymore. It's slow and boring.
...
What we are saying is there are 34720340234802830482093840983204 more fun ways to make a game fun, challenged, and engaging without having "level ups"

Look at the ratchet and clank series or the Jax and Daxter series or the Assasin's creed Franchise. All these games have rpg elements and a well paced character development from weaker to very powerfull.

Closer to our own genere you can look at the record breaking Guild Wars, and guild wars 2 (which looks awesome btw I hope you role-play it with us ^^) which are essentially "level-less". They tout "If you love mmos you'll want to check out our game, if you HATE mmos you'll REALLY want to check out our game."
...
A game shoud not just consist of a few fun parts that you get to do very occasionally after a long grind of boredom. We don't think that's okay.... I won't stand for it in fact.

I want to challenge my game developers to THINK and inovate, and to be creative and really apply all their artistry and talent to a game.

The majority of MMOs new and old, and all RPGs include grinding, pace of grind is the part that needs tweaking, 1~50 in a few days(if you have the time/day) is fail. Grinding can and should be both fun(social interaction, it's an MMO after all), and a good time for learning your jobs mechanics. 6 months to 50 is not good 6hrs to 50 is not better.
A game with "RPG elements" does not an RPG make.
Don't try to redefine the genre that's like renaming pen to qre, it's not gonna work, RPGs are RPGs.
Guild Wars was one of a kind, I didn't care for it, but there's alot of things I don't care for. It's not to say it was bad, but to say let it remain unique.

Your absolutely right, we should be able to do fun things often, but if you get to start doing what you want from day one, it kind of loses out on the "I earned this" that actually makes it enjoyable. Kind of like everyone just getting an Ifrit Blade cause you "made a character".

Growth is growth because... well, it takes time. Earning things, working for things, showing off what you earned. Yep that's the intro to elitism but you can't call it wrong.

[Xoo]

Join the revolution Xoo, fight for better games, fun games, memorable game moments every time you log in./

I don't think so.

Grinds have been an integral party of RPG's since the genre began. If he had one, Sakaguchi would have just rolled over in his grave. My question for all of you people, (concerning your GW2 quote), if you hate it so much, well what in Christ's name are you trying to prove by voluntarily, repeatedly exposing yourself to something you don't like? There is a game for us, and there is a game for you. I choose RPG's because I, for one, happen to like them... everything about them.

If I were to listen to you about how times are a-changing, can you imagine what you'd be telling the generation of gamers down the road? I imagine it to be something to the effect of, "Back in my day, we didn't have a choice of playing the game or not. All you knuckleheads have to do is decide to start the game at the beginning or the end! I can't imagine why you even bought or play the game at all"!

[JakeRoon]

ah the joy of tired old excuses why games have to be boring.....reminds me of the smell of goopy moldy cheeses....

some ppl love em, some ppl can't stand em....

[Peptaru]

Ahhh the joy of tired old preaching that its boring because they think it is.... reminds me of the smell of bovine manure.... ahhh bullshit.

Its just your opinion that that stuff is boring, I like the grind and the sense of accomplishment that comes with it. I find it enjoyable and can have a good time with it because its killing time as I want it to.

[JakeRoon]

I think you guys are confusing the fact terms "leveling exp" and grind and what I call: progression.

Ever since we started these discussions ppl automatically assume that i am against taking a LONG time to make a powerful character...I'm not...in fact I think it would be sweet to have a game that took 5 years to make an epic hero awesome ness character...

I in no way, in any of my posts suggested that "as soon as you log in you can fight Ifrit" or some such non sense as you guys keep arguing....

I am quite simply saying that grinding out mobs for exp is boring to almost every gamer on the planet except the few die hard hold outs.

Everyone else wants ACTUAL challenges. A LOT of them.
Many, varied, and fun.

so please re-read my posts with some comprehension.....

[Peptaru]

RPGs have forever involved leveling to gain access to the challenges you describe. The access to the challenges was part of the reward, part of the fun, part of the journey. Now people just want to do challenges without any of the leveling. Idk what its called, but RPG is the wrong term for it.

People always talk about comprehension when A: they don't explain themselves well, B: ran out of new things to say, C: want to make themselves feel great like everyone else is dumb cuz they don't get it. Which one is you?

You can't say that you speak the mind of all but a few hold-outs, that's stupid and i find it truly hard to believe you could be THAT arrrogant.... but this is the internet, so maybe you can be.

[Valmonte]

I can see that you love to level up, I know many many Korean grind hell games you would love (lineage 2 comes right to mind damn what a grind)

But....what you must grasp is that "Leveling up through a massive grind" is NOT (((UTTERRRLLLLY NOT-WATCH MY CAPS-NOT) what must define the genre any longer....

It just plain old school BS that is long since ded, dee eee dee, ded.....

Modern gamers (some old some young) are just not going to stand for it anymore. It's slow and boring.

You might as well be here spouting off about how the world so go back to horse and buggy vs cars.

It's over Xoo, the jury is out, boring grinds are on death row.

Course nothing is stopping you from visiting them there. But please stop compagianing to release that public terror back on the streets.

/harp-off

What we are saying is there are 34720340234802830482093840983204 more fun ways to make a game fun, challenged, and engaging without having "level ups"

Look at the ratchet and clank series or the Jax and Daxter series or the Assasin's creed Franchise. All these games have rpg elements and a well paced character development from weaker to very powerfull.

Closer to our own genere you can look at the record breaking Guild Wars, and guild wars 2 (which looks awesome btw I hope you role-play it with us ^^) which are essentially "level-less". They tout "If you love mmos you'll want to check out our game, if you HATE mmos you'll REALLY want to check out our game."

And they are right....

In the modern gamers perspective more of the game should be FUN with less boredom. A game should be a compleation of 15000 small rewards that are challenging yes, but very accomplish-able in a play session of a couple hours each.

A game shoud not just consist of a few fun parts that you get to do very occasionally after a long grind of boredom. We don't think that's okay.... I won't stand for it in fact.

I want to challenge my game developers to THINK and inovate, and to be creative and really apply all their artistry and talent to a game.

I think they deserve that from us, NO i think this medium NEEDS that from us as gamers.

Join the revolution Xoo, fight for better games, fun games, memorable game moments every time you log in.

POWER TO THE GAMERSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!

i don't know if your just trolling or just stupid, so i'm just going to assume your a braincell short of a vegetable.

1.) all the games you mentioned are Action/Adventure Games.

2.) Leveling up has and always will Define the RPG Genre in some form or another. wither it be leveling up you gear, leveling up your power/ability's, or the old time tested leveling up your Class/Character.

this extreme sometimes detested Leveling scheme is the only thing keeping the RPG genre alive. remove this one feature and your left with an Action/Adventure game nothing more and nothing less.

[Enfarious]

I'm too lazy to /quote ppl today

There has been something of a shift in the "grind" process though, once upon a time (before MMO was affixed) RPG grinds where on random mobs(area defined the mobs that could pop) in random encounters. This actually did bring a little excitement to the "grind" since you never knew what exactly you'd get.
The fact remains though that RPGs are a grind start to finish, whether it be the mobs that you fight while trying to reach the "boss" of a dungeon or the overland "farming". What MMOs leave out is the variety, we generally stand in one spot and kill 10mil of the same mob with a slight level variation. It can get boring if that's really all you do. If you talk to people, work on learning the ins and outs of your job(far too easy in this game), mastery of SA TA Collaborator was a must for a decent thf in endgame, just mashing them all at random intervals didn't keep people alive very well.

I've drifted a bit, coming back around now. If you don't like to grind, go play an Action/Adventure/FPS, there's plenty of them out there with "RPG elements". You've chosen poorly if you believe a RPG should be anything other than a RPG ...
Global Agenda, or perhaps DC Universe, might be somewhat better fits?

This game NEEDS to find a way to make the grind less monotonous I'll give you, running the same 4 leves does get old, fighting the same mob for 8 hrs gets a little old, but they DO NOT need to get rid of it, if anything it needs to be made into a somewhat slower more party-centric process with mob types mixed into eachother to add some variety to what your fighting (running laps in 1 grid that's all "fill in mob" then moving to the "fill in mob" area is a little silly).
It also needs to encourage people to engage in "mid-game" content while they're "mid-game" levels (level caps on dungeons would work too I suppose). Who wants to run a dungeons/kill NMs that only drop gear for 25~30 when you'll go 25~40 in a day and those drops, which could take hours or even days, will be out grown in far less time than it takes to get them.


I'm not knocking PL'd players, just their knowledge of their jobs since they didn't "learn" to play them on the way up.

[Xoo]

Update: Bought and re-installed FFXI today. Another soul enters Asura! I don't know what that other guy was saying, but all the nostalgia and old memories are still fully intact. Was surprised at just how much I remembered after almost 2 years of absence, and amazed that there were actually people leveling up in West Ronfaure! I expected to see a ghost town of Sand'Oria, but it really wasn't. Leaving my FFXIV account active for now, but it's taking a back seat for a while.

[Enfarious]

Update: Bought and re-installed FFXI today. Another soul enters Asura! I don't know what that other guy was saying, but all the nostalgia and old memories are still fully intact. Was surprised at just how much I remembered after almost 2 years of absence, and amazed that there were actually people leveling up in West Ronfaure! I expected to see a ghost town of Sand'Oria, but it really wasn't. Leaving my FFXIV account active for now, but it's taking a back seat for a while.

Yeah all of that's still there, but with time you'll begin to see the "damage" that levelsync + GoV + Abyssea have caused. Even if you plan to solo your entire career there's some content that's just not doable solo. That's when you see players that haven't a clue how to play but have all jobs @99 and other things of that nature. There's still plenty of "old" players around too who aren't bad. But the damage is evident.

Anyway, have fun their, your doing the same thing I did around launch of XIV. I started playing in beta and hung up XI didn't kill my acct just then. Played XIV until ~2months after launch hoping for good patch progress, I'd been holding my breath since Beta. Then went back to XI, another year or so in XI mostly bored with doing the things I'd already done before, and losing intrest in the newish stuff, I came back here to see the full scope of the patchwork.

I will say that I like where this is headed, which for the time being is the opposite of XI's new direction. A direction meant to draw in the "A.D.D." crowds that can't fathom spending a month leveling a job to cap, or putting in the effort to finish a relic (that's a bad example 2years to complete a relic was obscene, yes you could do it faster if you had time and bought "coins").

I'm going to stop my rambling rant there.