Fighting Desperately...

[Airget]

I think you're overreacting.

FFXI didn't really have any difficulty to it. It just took fucking forever to get anything done. Or to wait for an NM to pop so that some other team would claim it. Or to wait 72 hours to be able to go to Dynamis again so that your relic armor doesn't drop. I could go on.

Exactly Time sink=/= immersion, difficulty or player skill.

[Platinumstorm]

Exactly Time sink=/= immersion, difficulty or player skill.

I'm always surprised that people associate FFXI's model with difficulty, challenge, and skill. When I think of challenges and immersions I don't think of standing in one spot pulling an identical mob over and over. I'm also always surprised that the developers [original XI and original XIV] never seem to understand that story and adventure are major appeals to Final Fantasy games in general; they're certainly not something that begins only after you've maxed out your character level, and certainly not something you progress through only a tiny fraction of the time.

[Xoo]

I'm always surprised that people associate FFXI's model with difficulty, challenge, and skill. When I think of challenges and immersions I don't think of standing in one spot pulling an identical mob over and over. I'm also always surprised that the developers [original XI and original XIV] never seem to understand that story and adventure are major appeals to Final Fantasy games in general; they're certainly not something that begins only after you've maxed out your character level, and certainly not something you progress through only a tiny fraction of the time.

Killing one enemy repeatedly is not difficult, given you come prepared.

When I say 'prepared', I mean your tank has to do his best to keep hate off the Black Mage, Samurai, and Ranger (difficulty); Your Thief has to be quick with SATA and use status bolts (depth); Your mages have to monitor their output closely so as not to pull hate (difficulty); Your Red Mage should employ every applicable debuff to the mob while also serving as a backup healer and nuker (depth); The experienced Bard should be able to keep the action going without interruption (gameplay).

If you do not have a majority of these qualities in your group, then killing crabs over and over is going to be a long and painful process. Of course, killing the same mob repeatedly is what we do in this game now, so I'm not sure what point you're digging at.

[Enfarious]

Killing one enemy repeatedly is not difficult, given you come prepared.

When I say 'prepared', I mean your tank has to do his best to keep hate off the Black Mage, Samurai, and Ranger (difficulty); Your Thief has to be quick with SATA and use status bolts (depth); Your mages have to monitor their output closely so as not to pull hate (difficulty); Your Red Mage should employ every applicable debuff to the mob while also serving as a backup healer and nuker (depth); The experienced Bard should be able to keep the action going without interruption (gameplay).

If you do not have a majority of these qualities in your group, then killing crabs over and over is going to be a long and painful process. Of course, killing the same mob repeatedly is what we do in this game now, so I'm not sure what point you're digging at.

Yeah other than repeating the same ~4 leves for grinding now there is 0 variety, the grind style of all games follows that model. Hence the name "grind" aka "work" aka "tedium" this is the price of progress.

OMG someone other than me talked about team strategy, that's awesome, sad really that this game still has none at all, button mash your way to the end. Solo-Combos do not show strategy, just an ability to mash buttons in order ...

Can we get some "team play" back?

Yes I know there's tanks/healers/DDs but they really don't perform as a team so much as a pack of ppl doin their own thing. Someday maybe ...

[Galoot]

Killing one enemy repeatedly is not difficult, given you come prepared.

When I say 'prepared', I mean your tank has to do his best to keep hate off the Black Mage, Samurai, and Ranger (difficulty); Your Thief has to be quick with SATA and use status bolts (depth); Your mages have to monitor their output closely so as not to pull hate (difficulty); Your Red Mage should employ every applicable debuff to the mob while also serving as a backup healer and nuker (depth); The experienced Bard should be able to keep the action going without interruption (gameplay).

If you do not have a majority of these qualities in your group, then killing crabs over and over is going to be a long and painful process. Of course, killing the same mob repeatedly is what we do in this game now, so I'm not sure what point you're digging at.

Thank you! Someone else finally talking about game mechanics and fighting strategies. Although you fight the same mob, you can always do it faster and better. And when my PT was rolling, I was loving it. In every game we kill the same things over and over, name a game and it happens. What made FFXI's battle system so great was that if someone was weak or didn't know how to do their part, that PT felt it. If everyone knows what they're doing and SCs are flying and MBs are going off it was great. But enter TP PTs, Abyssea, and now FFXIV and it's a spam fest with no regard to any strategy because none is needed...thus the fun of the fight and leveling is lost and with it the journey lessens.

[Crysten]

Thank you! Someone else finally talking about game mechanics and fighting strategies. Although you fight the same mob, you can always do it faster and better. And when my PT was rolling, I was loving it. In every game we kill the same things over and over, name a game and it happens. What made FFXI's battle system so great was that if someone was weak or didn't know how to do their part, that PT felt it. If everyone knows what they're doing and SCs are flying and MBs are going off it was great. But enter TP PTs, Abyssea, and now FFXIV and it's a spam fest with no regard to any strategy because none is needed...thus the fun of the fight and leveling is lost and with it the journey lessens.

First of all, I will first say that in certain places XI did have some strategy to it - Kirin in particular springs to mind, but honestly, all those strategies boiled down to was "hit your macro with the right timing and pay attention to not suck." Fights like the past King Anthro were great ideas but as you say, the game is now simply "zerg it with temps until one of you dies."

The thing is though, XIV has this "deep" system too - if one of your party members doesn't know the core mechanics to Ifrit, damn right you're going to feel that as well. I've found a lot of the fights in XIV far more engaging and far more strategic than XI - Ifrit is all about timing and reflexes (and yeah, I know people get pissy about lag on cracks). Moogles starts with a planned zerg strategy then switches to an endurance fight. Batraal requires the party to co-ordinate and split up. The job system might be entirely diverse yet but it's still in it's infancy.

Also, people keep mentioning "it's all about the journey." Everyone's journey is unique and everyone has the right to go about that journey however they please. If someone wants to solo grind all the way to 50 or have their level 50 friend PL them up to spend time together, then that's up to the individual. Whether that journey takes months or years, it shouldn't even matter.

Just because you don't like the way some people play the game, doesn't mean it's the way that EVERYONE should play the game. It's their journey, and they can take whatever path they Goddam please.

EDIT:: I also approve of my new Yoshi-P avatar. Nice April Fools guys, loool

[Galoot]

First of all, I will first say that in certain places XI did have some strategy to it - Kirin in particular springs to mind, but honestly, all those strategies boiled down to was "hit your macro with the right timing and pay attention to not suck." Fights like the past King Anthro were great ideas but as you say, the game is now simply "zerg it with temps until one of you dies."

The thing is though, XIV has this "deep" system too - if one of your party members doesn't know the core mechanics to Ifrit, damn right you're going to feel that as well. I've found a lot of the fights in XIV far more engaging and far more strategic than XI - Ifrit is all about timing and reflexes (and yeah, I know people get pissy about lag on cracks). Moogles starts with a planned zerg strategy then switches to an endurance fight. Batraal requires the party to co-ordinate and split up. The job system might be entirely diverse yet but it's still in it's infancy.

Also, people keep mentioning "it's all about the journey." Everyone's journey is unique and everyone has the right to go about that journey however they please. If someone wants to solo grind all the way to 50 or have their level 50 friend PL them up to spend time together, then that's up to the individual. Whether that journey takes months or years, it shouldn't even matter.

Just because you don't like the way some people play the game, doesn't mean it's the way that EVERYONE should play the game. It's their journey, and they can take whatever path they Goddam please.

EDIT:: I also approve of my new Yoshi-P avatar. Nice April Fools guys, loool

I was speaking more in terms of EXP PTs and the way it made leveling feel more exciting and fun. In FFXIV I don't care that it is fast or anything like that, but I don't think it's engaging or fun in my opinion of course. Not sure where you got the idea that I want everyone to play a certain way...Your point about anyone can play how they want, I certainly agree with that as my gaming changes day to day with RL in the mix, sometimes just wanting to hop on for a half hour or so. Also, you're a fellow Gungir and Gridanian, look forward to crossing paths.

[Xoo]

Just because you don't like the way some people play the game, doesn't mean it's the way that EVERYONE should play the game. It's their journey, and they can take whatever path they Goddam please.

You really think so? Perhaps you weren't the person with multiple Linkshells, 165 people on their Friend List, a working knowledge of the party search function, no reservations about shouting for an hour on the streets of Ul'dah for some party members to go out and grind with. For 3 days I did this, all in vain, and for the simple fact that everyone, I kid you not, everyone that could have otherwise went with me was either in Mun-Tuy or Nanawa, sitting AFK/asleep while a Lv50 THM or CON played their game for them.

So you tell me where the choice is in that?

[Crysten]

You really think so? Perhaps you weren't the person with multiple Linkshells, 165 people on their Friend List, a working knowledge of the party search function, no reservations about shouting for an hour on the streets of Ul'dah for some party members to go out and grind with. For 3 days I did this, all in vain, and for the simple fact that everyone, I kid you not, everyone that could have otherwise went with me was either in Mun-Tuy or Nanawa, sitting AFK/asleep while a Lv50 THM or CON played their game for them.

So you tell me where the choice is in that?

You're parading your own experience as "the" experience. I don't remember having any trouble getting to 50 through a mix of parties (when they were still sparse on Mysidia) and solo grinding through leves. I even got a few PL parties to level my subs up. I think that's plenty of choice from my end and the majority of that choice came from my current linkshell or my RL friends.

If you had several linkshells and 150 people on your friends list and couldn't find a bloody party, I'd look a little closer to home for the core problem to the particular situation you found yourself in...

You can tell people this all day but they're not going to stop until they cause MMOs to go out of existence. I've seen it in other types of media, things are made to keep you on the hook and take a while, then something comes along that makes that experience instantly gratifying. Then everybody tries to copy, quality of the whole genre goes down and everybody gets sick of it then BAM the whole genre is dead.

You do know the entire design philosophy of MMOs is to keep people playing for as long as possible, right? You know, for example, Skinner Box techniques? Why on Earth would any sane MMO developer make an instantly gratifying experience when the entire point is to design content that can be completed slower than it can be developed?

WoW's flaws or positives aside, it changed the market trend into something that has widespread appeal. The age of most MMO gamers is increasing as time goes on and these people just don't have the time to dedicate to a hardcore MMO anymore. I've done all the crap in XI; I have an Aegis. I levelled three of my jobs pre-Aht Urhgan the "old school" way in Bibiki Bay. I've lived in the Aery for days.

And you know what, you can go piss right off if you want to feed me any of that garbage again. I'm perfectly happy in an environment where I can spend an hour or two in game and feel like I've accomplished something. That's the future of the genre, and if you don't like it, the door is right there and there's a bus to XI or EQ waiting right outside.

Fact of the matter is, those who say mid-game play should take a backseat to end-game play are only out there for the thrill of victory over others and apparently care little about the journey and adventure it takes to get there. They make games such as Mortal Kombat and Street Fighter for these kind of people. They don't belong in RPG's at all in the first place.

I really don't understand the connection between "end-game" and "the thrill of victory" and I'd actually like you to elaborate here. There's no competition in this game (and XI did the worst job of creating competition in the form of HNM, but that's another story) and there is mid-game content for those who wish to persue it. Once again, who are you to say what content a player may or may not enjoy/partake in? If I don't want to do Toto-rak or Chocobo escorts, that's not even your problem.

Exactly this sentiment that I believe is going to become a reality that resulted in my OP. Specifically, the first paragraph. Anyone who has any appreciation for anything in life knows that the journey is not just a means to an end. It is the defining characteristic of those ends.

Yet you're heavily implying that anyone who takes the journey a certain way deserves a certain kind of belittlement compared to someone who doesn't.

[Sasagawa]

I'm always surprised that people associate FFXI's model with difficulty, challenge, and skill. When I think of challenges and immersions I don't think of standing in one spot pulling an identical mob over and over. I'm also always surprised that the developers [original XI and original XIV] never seem to understand that story and adventure are major appeals to Final Fantasy games in general; they're certainly not something that begins only after you've maxed out your character level, and certainly not something you progress through only a tiny fraction of the time.

Agree to some of the above

especially the idea of story being an integral part of FFs

Saying that though the gret thing about XI was that because it was a long haul to level jobs you often took breaks to go quest or help a lower level friend or do bits of story quests you could do which consequently made you want to level further to find out more about the story, to then take another break.

Either way XIV its different

Level to max level - Do Story (what little there is has been good)

XI was more interactive

an example of the difference would be like comparing these two pictures

FFXI

http://www.atpm.com/7.03/images/insp...instorming.gif

FFXIV

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...artExample.png

Personally I would prefer ny adventures to be more like a brainstorm than a flow chart.

I hope this makes some obscure sense :P