Fighting Desperately...

[myoozek]

Interestingly, these forums are quite a time sink, and trolls seem so attracted to them to flame others, if only just to flame. Anyone complaining about time sinks while posting in these more drawn-out forum posts should re-evaluate their perception and application of time. You might find your very existing to be a time-sink approach to natural evolution of species. RPGs, by nature, are time sinks, MMORPGs, take that to the next level. I tend not to post here on the forums, refraining from participating in the chance to receive non-sensical responses by dimwits, however I sympathize with both the OP as well as valid arguments put forth by others, and hope that my proceeding thoughts prove insightful to even just a few.

I played XI since launch, and stopped around level 55, so I was no where near exposed to any of the end-game content. I basically stopped around release of ToAU.
I've played XIV since launch, with no pauses or breaks, save for the few vacation stints like the one I'm on now. I've done all the 'end-game' content, save for what's his face the decapitator in the Ixali stronghold.
I hope that meets whatever requirements a jackass might put forth.

XI seemed to embody a certain sense of awe with the game, if even just during the early years. All end-game, 99 maat stuff you're all talking about - never even seen it. But what I do know is that starting XI, I was literally at the edge of my seat. I'll never forget the first Bastok-SanDoria run that my buddy and I actually carved a weekend out of our time to do, and that was intense. I think the game at launch was much more robust than XIV's launch, and I think that's important to note because many of the frustrations we have today with XIV are due to a lack of experience as opposed to a lack of content. XIV definitely has content, but it's so unfulfilling. The most recent example I'll cite is Cutter's, where, although some decent skill was required, I did not throw my keyboard in the air with jubilation after defeating it . In fact, nearly the entire party I was with was very nonchalant about it. As if we were merely beating it because others had already done so, and we, as a group, felt lacking having not. As if it was the norm, or expected, if you will. And I think this is where the end-game content debate gets messy, as often, the game's lack-luster is attributed to lack of content or a lack of difficulty. I disagree. I think it's a lack of valiancy and esteem.

Now - to the more underlying systemic problem I see with XIV, which oddly enough, is not related to XIV directly. It's related to the social tools XIV employs, namely, the widespread availability of the interwebs.

So commonplace is it to find a video of a new raid, a strategy guide or a map. Certain members within my linkshell are opposed to my opposing of using any such content to assist us, but I am adamantly opposed to it, because this socializing of the game, outside of the game, is what I feel is deteriorating the experience required for this game, especially as they reboot it. I find it personally rewarding not to beat Chimera or Ifrit or whatever, but that I beat it on my own terms - not referencing some method some other linkshell on some other server did it on day one. Knowing this honestly discourages me, because there's a hint of "well they did it, why aren't WE doing it?" and it's very frustrating that, for example, when Garuda comes out, the fanfare will not be attributed to defeating Garuda, it'll be (or often can be, for all you fucking faggot flamers who will nit-pick at any vague generalization any poster gives as a means to illustrate a point) attributed to beating it faster than another linkshell did on some other server. I suppose that when XI was released, there wasn't nearly as large a forum (be it video, text, image) to support the content. It was up to YOU to figure it out, which I think is what the OP might find alluring with solo-play. I'm honestly sick and tired of party members citing videos and walk thrus and guides on how we should do it. It easily removes any sense of accomplishment and satisfaction.

All I know is, if when 2.0 relaunches, I'm still having to question myself when my neighbor calls me stupid for playing XIV, that'll be the end of it. And it won't be a result of content, mechanics, difficulty, reward, drop rate, or anything other specific aspect. It'll be a result of the game as a whole, which I think is the fairest evaluation any player can employ. To expect the game to excel in every aspect is unrealistic, however, if it continues to be deficient in all aspects (though things are getting better, in my honest opinion, which I'm very thankful for, especially considering this new content is more or less 'filler' content until 2.0, a firm acknowledgment of that observation), it will spell demise.

(Notice how I didn't say something stupid like, "DURR, IF YOU LIKE IT SO MUCH WHY DON'T YOU FUCKING GO PLAY IT AND MARRY IT, WE DON'T WANT YOU HERE ANYWAYS, PLUS YOU ARE DUMB AND I'M NOT EVEN GOING TO TELL YOU WHY I THINK YOU ARE DUMB, YOU'RE JUST DUMB ANYWAYS")

\m/

[syntaxlies]

xoo, you have lost that love and feeling.

[Galoot]

Excellent post Ava! And a fellow Gungir player! Agree with you 100%, FFXI was so in depth and everytime you would travel to a new place was exciting. I remember our LS beating the Gods for the first time, no guides to walk us through, no videos, just trial and error. I don't think I was ever more pumped then tanking Byakko successfully for the first time on NIN and the skill it required without strategies. Anticipation creates excitement in my opinion, even if people call it a "time sink".

[AdvancedWind]

Nostalgia, oh so powerful nostalgia.

Final Fantasy XI was awesome and you had a good time playing it. I'm sure of it and I'm sure you have plenty of valid reasons for that.

But please, for the love of the twelve, move on. I don't even know what to say to these kinds of threads anymore, but please.....just.....move on. And if you can't, Final Fantasy XI is still there and you're not forced to buy new expansions or level past 75, as far as I know. Get a group of like minded people and play it just like the old times if you must.

Again, I understand how you feel. I'd give an arm for a HD FFIX remake or a true FFT sequel. But with all those nostalgia-fueled threads and mindless bashing of allegedly "casual" features (like helpful UI additions such as the combo display or not having 72hour lookout on content) are already reaching a point of desperation.

[Geesus]

Just as an example of what can be accomplished in just 3 months view here I saw this on Lodestone not EVEN looking for proof for this post at all; sort just found it reading.

[Sasagawa]

Ok....

this is what i think

The fact that in FFXI I could level PLD/WAR and SMN/WHM to 75 and it would take for a very casual player around a year maybe more depending on frequency of play. But after that year and the grind you had such a wealth of experiences and experience with your job. You could say you became your job

However, only having those 2 jobs at 75 you still felt as though you achieved something and you filled a very specific role within the game environment. what I want to illustrate is you could play only one job and be the best at that job enjoy that job and you always knew when you where with a good pld (regardless of gear) or a good SMN. Furthermore, level ling other jobs didnt matter too much because your level 75 job no matter what it was filled a specific role in a party that needed to be filled in order to do simple things such as levelling/merit points etc. There was no point in XI with my limited jobs that I felt the need to level any other job.

(I am assuming appropriate sub jobs are leveled to 37)

Now FFXIV

If you level a job to 50 without leveling the other jobs you are severely handicapped not only that but each of the classes feel somehow cheap, I never really connected with the class I was playing due to the short leveling curve. Now this is purely my feelings but the classes and jobs in XIV just seem to fit the analogy "Too many cooks spoil the broth" what I mean to say is each class can do too many things themselves (Jobs have alleviated this somewhat, however classes are still there). For all FXIVs positives I think the fast leveling, changing jobs out in the field anywhere, and the armory system is its downfall.

[Bunto]

I feel like people whining about this shit are just mad they can't waste 4 years grinding to be a unique snowflake in a video game.

[Sasagawa]

I feel like people whining about this shit are just mad they can't waste 4 years grinding to be a unique snowflake in a video game.

Bunto I respect your opinion but I wasn't whining just stating my own feelings at no point have I said I dislike FFXIV just that I feel the Class/Job system feels cheap.

Ultimately it comes down to play styles

I want to be engrossed in a game and feel as though I can be the best PLD WAR or whatever that I can be through hard work and time spent learning to play the job to the best of its abilities and that for someone to catch up to my level they would equally have to spend time immersing themselves with the job, much like how if ou play BF3 you get owned at first but over time you keep on improving in skills knowing what to look for and how to play the different classes within a squad. Essentially FFXI gave this team cohesion throughout the game not just in a few unique end game scenarios and it actively encouraged you to work as a team at all times putting the multi-player into MMOS.

FFXIV does this at very unique areas usually dungeons or raids (hate that word), but to be honest it is not quite on the same level. I think the most fun fights I have had in FFXIV have been Moogle and Ifrit. Some people will chalk this up to lack of content but tbh if you ever played ffxi the rush of being in a great party set up while leveling and chaining up to 6/7 was an amazing rush. you just don't really get that at the minute on FFXIV

In addition

The level milestones the anticipation of getting to 30 o unlock your first job then further to 41 to get your AF weapon then to 50 to do your limit break. all fantastic goals to aim for, again something FFXIV doesnt really have at the moment. my hope is that post 50 it becomes very hard to level and we see people have to dedicate time to reaching 99 WAR or THM. but we will have to wait and see .

[myoozek]

I want to be engrossed in a game and feel as though I can be the best PLD WAR or whatever that I can be through hard work and time spent learning to play the job to the best of its abilities and that for someone to catch up to my level they would equally have to spend time immersing themselves with the job, much like how if ou play BF3 you get owned at first but over time you keep on improving in skills knowing what to look for and how to play the different classes within a squad. Essentially FFXI gave this team cohesion throughout the game not just in a few unique end game scenarios and it actively encouraged you to work as a team at all times putting the multi-player into MMOS.

FFXIV does this at very unique areas usually dungeons or raids (hate that word), but to be honest it is not quite on the same level. I think the most fun fights I have had in FFXIV have been Moogle and Ifrit. Some people will chalk this up to lack of content but tbh if you ever played ffxi the rush of being in a great party set up while leveling and chaining up to 6/7 was an amazing rush. you just don't really get that at the minute on FFXIV

In addition

The level milestones the anticipation of getting to 30 o unlock your first job then further to 41 to get your AF weapon then to 50 to do your limit break. all fantastic goals to aim for, again something FFXIV doesnt really have at the moment. my hope is that post 50 it becomes very hard to level and we see people have to dedicate time to reaching 99 WAR or THM. but we will have to wait and see .

Sasagawa, you bring up some very good points. I think there's a sense of urgency on players' part to hit all jobs to 50, which then, in turn, strip players of a uniqueness in a part environment. XI seemed to embody this better, insofar as encouraging players to pick a class/job and BE that, as opposed to being able to do everything. When I signed up for XIV, I chose the MiQote specifically for AGI/DEX buffs as I wanted to be the ARC/RNG type. But - it's all irrelevant now! >.< And apparently, though I don't know how much truth there is to this, stats don't nearly play as big a role as they did in XI, though I could be wrong. It seems that this class/job-uniqueness has been flattened as a result of there being nothing else to do except the 5~7 or so dungeon/raids, and leveling.

And, to further emphasize your point, the lack of milestones while leveling also severely strips players of a sense of achievement and reward when you can level from 1~50 without ever having to break away from behests and leves. I like the idea of there being milestones, where in order to progress past 25, you do totorok or something (capped at 25 mind you!, so 50s can join and demolish everything while you just follow and stay out of harm's way), and to progress past 35, something else, etc. It seems to be improving with the addition of jobs (at least in concept), however the fact that jobs can piggy back off your class level strips current players with 50s the ability to level something new.

I've iterated this point before in some previous post I think, but my fear is that as SE releases new content leading up to 2.0, that because the content is so limited (result of limited dev resources for non 2.0 content) that everyone floods it and then asks "Now what?!" until new content is released and the cycle repeats. I also fear that if they release 2.0 and reset everything (to better level the playing field so existing players don't feel so over-achieved with 50 everything) that it'll upset them and cause a mass exodus from the game, which is a valid concern and fear, methinks.

[Riaayo]

Sasagawa, you bring up some very good points. I think there's a sense of urgency on players' part to hit all jobs to 50, which then, in turn, strip players of a uniqueness in a part environment. XI seemed to embody this better, insofar as encouraging players to pick a class/job and BE that, as opposed to being able to do everything. When I signed up for XIV, I chose the MiQote specifically for AGI/DEX buffs as I wanted to be the ARC/RNG type. But - it's all irrelevant now! >.< And apparently, though I don't know how much truth there is to this, stats don't nearly play as big a role as they did in XI, though I could be wrong. It seems that this class/job-uniqueness has been flattened as a result of there being nothing else to do except the 5~7 or so dungeon/raids, and leveling.

And, to further emphasize your point, the lack of milestones while leveling also severely strips players of a sense of achievement and reward when you can level from 1~50 without ever having to break away from behests and leves. I like the idea of there being milestones, where in order to progress past 25, you do totorok or something (capped at 25 mind you!, so 50s can join and demolish everything while you just follow and stay out of harm's way), and to progress past 35, something else, etc. It seems to be improving with the addition of jobs (at least in concept), however the fact that jobs can piggy back off your class level strips current players with 50s the ability to level something new.

I've iterated this point before in some previous post I think, but my fear is that as SE releases new content leading up to 2.0, that because the content is so limited (result of limited dev resources for non 2.0 content) that everyone floods it and then asks "Now what?!" until new content is released and the cycle repeats. I also fear that if they release 2.0 and reset everything (to better level the playing field so existing players don't feel so over-achieved with 50 everything) that it'll upset them and cause a mass exodus from the game, which is a valid concern and fear, methinks.

You have to understand that when XI released it didn't have all the advanced jobs etc either, and what hit the US was like 2 years down the pipeline. XI had the same problem of everyone leveling everything, as you saw lots of people aiming for a Maat's cap. The difference is XI was older and had like 16 jobs to pick from rather than the 7 we currently have. You will see new people be more selective in what they level when 2.0 hits, but you can't realistically expect anyone playing right now to not level everything to 50 because there's so little to do.

When 2.0 reaches, you will also see the Job AF quests along the road for those leveling, something that was not along the road for many of us and was, thus, content we breezed through as all 50s. That is laying framework for players in the future, and not so much for us.

I'm sometimes a bit shocked when I see a player rank 50 in a matter of days, however I've come to realize the only part of me that cares is the selfish one that wants to be better than other people and horde something nice for myself rather than share it. In the end idiots always got to 75 in XI just the same as they get 50 here, so I'm at the point I don't even think leveling up even matters in an MMO other than to waste your time before you can access the meat of the important content or play with your max lvl friends.

The problem you bring up about people blasting through content, though, is not unique to XIV. WoW and every other mmo out there are experiencing this. New content is released and it is conquered in a matter of days... it's very difficult for development to keep up with such a pace, and I honestly think no mmo yet has the ability to not simply lose a player's interest between updates. I think the challenge for the game, at that point, is making that initial enjoyment of a new update so fun that even when it's exhausted and a player takes a few weeks off, they had enough fun to want to pick it right back up when your next patch hits (especially enough fun to where they don't turn their account off when they break). But sadly, you will not ever see actual engaging content that isn't steamrolled by people who are ridiculously committed to being world or sever 1st on everything.


Back to the original point, I agree that at the moment it feels like there's little diversity in players because everyone is leveling everything... but the majority of people playing prior to 2.0 are going to have all their classes maxed out until the end of this game's days, nomatter the updates added. I do personally hope they don't steepen the leveling curve too drastically 50+, as I enjoy every class I play immensely and don't look forward to weeks of grinding (this is the exact reason I quit FFXI after lvl 80 cap was released, after 5 years of playing). I believe the Jobs severely limiting your cross-classing abilities will help limit future players from feeling like they had to level every class (prior to the class reworks, you pretty much did need everything 50 to play any of the classes the best, which was a real mistake that is being slowly fixed).

I also don't personally agree with each race having a monumental advantage over others at specific things. While I liked the racial abilities in WoW, no race had so much more mp than another than it made you never want to touch a mage class as said race (Galka mages anyone?). Truth be told? I LIKED seeing that Galka black mage, even if his mp pool was crap. I'd like to see a bit less punishment for people who go away from the norm... but I do think each race might deserve something unique so it stands out more (Mithra could eat raw fish! How useless and yummy).