Valentione's Day Items

[Eloah]

I call it entitlement because for many years, one of the biggest complaints about FFXIV was that the game clothing designs "caters to female characters." People especially pointed out that Heavenward's AST relic gear was clearly designed for female characters. So you have a ton of players with male characters complain that they want their glam to be just as good as the girls'. On this very forum, people were answering them with "if you want it, then fantasia into a girl lol!" Suddenly, male get something well-designed, then those same people telling them to fantasia want it unisex

Poster in 2017: If you want it, then fantasia into a girl
Same poster in 2020: We should have the right to choice glams

Funny, because no one complained about the songbird gear being gendered

You are my new favorite person on the forum. And bonus because you are a Roe. I like Roes, XD.

Also are any other Male lalafells gonna try and pair the vest with shorts, instead of the given pants, to try and look as adorable as possible?

[Avidria]

It's fair if it's not your thing. It's not even in my top favorite items. But it's far from awful and nowhere near as bad as the Faerie Princess dress, which can eat your hand. It seemed like a technical reason why their dresses aren't usually narrow.

I call it entitlement because for many years, one of the biggest complaints about FFXIV was that the game clothing designs "caters to female characters." People especially pointed out that Heavenward's AST relic gear was clearly designed for female characters. So you have a ton of players with male characters complain that they want their glam to be just as good as the girls'. On this very forum, people were answering them with "if you want it, then fantasia into a girl lol!" Suddenly, male get something well-designed, then those same people telling them to fantasia want it unisex

Poster in 2017: If you want it, then fantasia into a girl
Same poster in 2020: We should have the right to choice glams

Funny, because no one complained about the songbird gear being gendered

I say awful because on Miqo'te, it really is awful. Half of my tail is eaten by the dress, and it's not just the top half. The tail clips out then back in again at the ruffle along the hem. It genuinely looks bad when I move, to me at least, which is why I won't be using it. I actually like the bodice and necklace and could probably ignore the weird ruffly sleeves if the skirt wasn't like that.

Some people probably are being a bit excessive about the reaction, but I dunno if I'd say entitled... definitely not about the majority of the posts I've seen. Personally I've always thought the "lol just fantasia" argument is absurd, and I've been unhappy with the gender (and racial) limitations on glamour for years. My first disappointment when I first started playing was finding out that Snow's outfit and hairstyle were genderlocked, after seeing them, loving them, and looking them up.

And idk about the Songbird set... I think the event where it was available in game happened while I was taking a break from the game, so I wasn't there for that. Those sets at least look pretty similar in style and shape, though, looking at them now. I like the guy version better there too... RIP me I guess, lmao.

[Iscah]

I should start this by saying that I am not demanding the waistcoat be unlocked, and I have male alts to enjoy it on, but I probably would make a nice steampunk MCH outfit for Aurelie if I could. With a skirt.

It's fair if it's not your thing. It's not even in my top favorite items. But it's far from awful and nowhere near as bad as the Faerie Princess dress, which can eat your hand. It seemed like a technical reason why their dresses aren't usually narrow.

I actually think it has worse clipping than the princess dress - not in terms of how much is swallowed up by it, but how avoidable it is.

If you want to make a big puffy princess skirt, there's no way of doing that without it clipping.

But the Valentione dress could avoid clipping altogether, at least for races without tails. Make it just an inch or two longer so the ruffled hem is below fingertip level in a neutral pose, and it wouldn't be an issue.

I call it entitlement because for many years, one of the biggest complaints about FFXIV was that the game clothing designs "caters to female characters." People especially pointed out that Heavenward's AST relic gear was clearly designed for female characters. So you have a ton of players with male characters complain that they want their glam to be just as good as the girls'. On this very forum, people were answering them with "if you want it, then fantasia into a girl lol!" Suddenly, male get something well-designed, then those same people telling them to fantasia want it unisex

Poster in 2017: If you want it, then fantasia into a girl
Same poster in 2020: We should have the right to choice glams

You're making a huge assumption, unless you actually have quotes from the "same poster" being dismissive in the past, then demanding gender unlocks now.

I've previously argued against the view that female characters get all the good glamours. There are lots of nice things that are either exclusive to male characters or look better on them.

The "fantasia into a girl" argument is silly - and if anything is going to further drive the people in charge of this to say "our data indicates that people like playing female characters, so we'll cater more to them".

Funny, because no one complained about the songbird gear being gendered

I think the Songbird outfits are a lot more balanced in making "similar but distinct" gendered versions of the same look. There are still reasons why people might prefer the other version for personal style, but you're probably going to use both in the same way, for the same sort of outfits.

The Valentione outfits just don't match in the same way. The male version is something from the 1800s / early 1900s / formal wear. You could use it for a wedding suit. Meanwhile the female version is.... cute and frilly. I don't even know what you could say it's from besides that. The only thing that makes them counterparts is that they were released together and both use the same two-colour effect.

Again, if the dress had a blouse under it, I think it would make a big difference to the apparent style of the outfit and what you could use it for, even if you didn't change anything else.

2) You act as if there aren't alterative to the jacket, when there's tons of them in game THAT ARE UNISEX. Not even counting the Bestman's gear, there's the Scion jacket, the lvl 60 Shire gear, the gear from St. Mocianne/Pharos Sirius HM, gear from Holminster Switch, some of the Scavaen gear, and others throughout the game. Again, all unisex options. If you hated dresses so much, you could've considered those. But the "wahhh!! I want this one!" when there's already a plethora of alternative options seems entitled to me.

For me at least, none of those are an equivalent style. They're all long-sleeved coats, and from different eras. This is a waistcoat, not a "jacket", and you can't just substitute those other items for the specific look it has. We don't have that anywhere else that I can think of, except for the Lv80 goldsmith outfit which can't be glamoured onto other classes.

I think that's why people particularly want it - it's filling a gap for a 'basic' costume style that can be worked into a lot of things. There's nothing else currently available if you do want that look, except maybe the Boulevardier vest which is also male-exclusive.

Wouldn't this be the perfect time to make a statement and start glamouring Astrid's suit as a female? The devs have ways of tracking which items get glamoured the most, so if a suit get's in the top 10 female glams they will notice there is a demand for such outfits. The same goes for male characters. Rock that 2B dress and make it popular.

I don't think that argument holds up. "Glamour this item that you don't particularly like, in the hope that enough other people will do the same that the devs work out this is a signal for them to make things that look like a different thing you do like."

I don't like the best man's suit. It looks masculine on a female character, and I'm not really fond of the style even on my male characters.

(I don't personally want to put my male characters in dresses, so I don't really have an opinion on the 2B dress - but again that would rely on people liking that particular dress enough to wear it in the vague hope it might lead to something else being unlocked in future.)

I think a lot of the draw of the waistcoat is that it isn't specifically masculine, but that it's an item that (in reality) can be worn by either gender, and with little difference in the style besides the tailoring and small details like which way the buttons do up.

If you took the Valentione waistcoat as-is and paired it with a skirt and heeled boots, that would look like a woman's outfit.

It comes down more to (modern Western) society's overall view of clothing. You can try to draw a line between "men's clothes" and "women's clothes" in real life too, but you end up with the same situation. Pants are men's clothing, skirts are women's clothing - but a woman can wear pants without people thinking she's crossdressing, whereas a man probably can't wear a skirt without giving that impression.

Back in the game, as someone who does stick to gender norms when picking outfits, I rarely-if-ever come across anything female-exclusive that I want to put on my male characters, but there are a number of male-exclusive things that I would like for my female characters, or that I do use from the unisex 'male counterpart' sets - just simple things like the Thavnairian gloves and sarouel, or the sailor brais, or the gambler's boots. I'd be disappointed if I couldn't access those, but I'm not at all bothered that I can't access the female equivalents on my male characters. I'd consider them female-exclusive at a mental level even if they weren't inaccessible.

More freedom is good of course, and if they can unlock everything for the people that do want it, that's great. But for now, that's the logical reason for at least part of the imbalance in male and female outfit availability: it reflects an imbalance in what people see as male and female clothing, and what they want access to.

[reivaxe]

I call it entitlement because for many years, one of the biggest complaints about FFXIV was that the game clothing designs "caters to female characters." People especially pointed out that Heavenward's AST relic gear was clearly designed for female characters. So you have a ton of players with male characters complain that they want their glam to be just as good as the girls'. On this very forum, people were answering them with "if you want it, then fantasia into a girl lol!" Suddenly, male get something well-designed, then those same people telling them to fantasia want it unisex

Poster in 2017: If you want it, then fantasia into a girl
Same poster in 2020: We should have the right to choice glams

Funny, because no one complained about the songbird gear being gendered

I pretty much agree.

As someone who wishes my Femroe could wear the vest I have to look at things objectively. To ask for both versions of this gear to be open to both genders I'd be asking for 2x the amount of work for a single event just cause. This is only being whined about because people don't like the top for females and I get it ... but I know that it makes no sense to request the devs do twice the amount of work just cause I don't like how a top looks when we know good and well that like only a fraction of guy characters would rock the dress.

Sometimes the guys get something that looks good and is only for them, that's fine.
As a femroe of culture I realize that the only thing on the guys outfit I want IS the top and the only thing for the females I don't like IS the top so I wouldn't want to trade away all the other parts I do like just to have the guy outfit be unisex now that I see what they look like. (As in, I think it's clearly pie in the sky to want them to make 2 outfits for 1 event at the same time so in a world where this glam was unisex it would clearly be based on the male. I still feel fine with the idea of them having a side team working on unrestricting the gear at a slower pace if that's what they're doing)

On the topic of this dress and people not liking it I feel the need to point out that sometimes glams are made to look best on a certain race. This dress reminds me of the rain coat and farie princess dress and the mog-station cat hoodie and other such tops in that it seems like it was clearly made to work on tots first and foremost. Sometimes dresses and skirts look best on tall races and sometimes the mid sizes ones, this seems to be one of the times when the dress looks best on a tiny tot.

[Eloah]

)On the topic of this dress and people not liking it I feel the need to point out that sometimes glams are made to look best on a certain race. This dress reminds me of the rain coat and farie princess dress and the mog-station cat hoodie and other such tops in that it seems like it was clearly made to work on tots first and foremost. Sometimes dresses and skirts look best on tall races and sometimes the mid sizes ones, this seems to be one of the times when the dress looks best on a tiny tot.

This is true, there are a bunch of things that appear to be designed to better suit a specific race. The SCH and BLM outfits come to mind, as they work best on lalafells; it might be because they are lalafell jobs, or just because the details aren't stretched out.

Conversely, a friend of mine who was a lala, but I'd now a miqo'te, says that as much as he enjoys being a lala, he likes the glamour options for his miqo'te more, since he has "legs". Though he has a habit of not wearing cloths anyway. So it's the option of looking like a stripper from chippendales or baby new year, lol.

Also look more evil, mwahahahaha

[Crushnight]

Funny, because no one complained about the songbird gear being gendered

Oh people complained just nowhere near as much because the quality between the two sets was equal, this year's Valentione day sets are not, the female one has an bit of a clipping problem especially with just standing around hands go through it, coupled this with the knowledge that removing genderlock on old gear pieces is being a thing (When is another matter) people are just wanting this bumped up in the queue to remove it faster since there are fewer suits for females.

Personal note I'd love the tights females get for my male characters yet we got another set of pants, your running out of trouser lengths SE (This one is slightly longer than Butler's while not as baggy as Clouds) :P

[Tsalmaveth]

I love how people want to try to invalidate opinions with 'you're ENTITLED'... what a crock.

People want equality in the choices in how they glamour their characters, just like how they dress IRL. And it is no one's business how a person dresses IRL OR in-game. I'm a small petite girl IRL and I DESPISE frilly cute little dresses. I want bespoke vests and slacks for no other reasons than I find them more comfortable and freeing to move in. That's all. It's just my preference. And I find it more aesthetically pleasing to me. I should have that same freedom in-game. I've said so for LITERALLY YEARS. This isn't some new phenom just because I find 'this particular dress' unpalatable. It's the same for others.

'But Tsal, I haven't seen as many people saying so! That means it just hasn't been as big a deal!'

Well, that's bully for you? Maybe you weren't on the forums as much? Or weren't talking to EVERYONE? Your sample sizes are limited and skewed.

Also, NO ONE is trying to 'take away' the nice male glam. Just because they want to open up the CHOICE FOR EVERYONE doesn't mean it suddenly GOES AWAY from the dudes. Good grief. That's the most childish take I've seen yet. Kindergarten was supposed to teach people what sharing entailed, right? That opening things up to everyone doesn't actually take the thing way from others? Check that out, it's a thing. Also, if the B2 glam, the Bunny glam... and every caster robe glam that dudes wear hasn't made people with so-called 'traditional values' (what?) keel over... opening up choices for everyone to wear what they want... removing the gender-locks won't either. Just saying.

[REPROBEAN_CHILD]

I love how people want to try to invalidate opinions with 'you're ENTITLED'... what a crock.

People want equality in the choices in how they glamour their characters, just like how they dress IRL. And it is no one's business how a person dresses IRL OR in-game. I'm a small petite girl IRL and I DESPISE frilly cute little dresses. I want bespoke vests and slacks for no other reasons than I find them more comfortable and freeing to move in. That's all. It's just my preference. And I find it more aesthetically pleasing to me. I should have that same freedom in-game. I've said so for LITERALLY YEARS. This isn't some new phenom just because I find 'this particular dress' unpalatable. It's the same for others.

'But Tsal, I haven't seen as many people saying so! That means it just hasn't been as big a deal!'

Well, that's bully for you? Maybe you weren't on the forums as much? Or weren't talking to EVERYONE? Your sample sizes are limited and skewed.

Also, NO ONE is trying to 'take away' the nice male glam. Just because they want to open up the CHOICE FOR EVERYONE doesn't mean it suddenly GOES AWAY from the dudes. Good grief. That's the most childish take I've seen yet. Kindergarten was supposed to teach people what sharing entailed, right? That opening things up to everyone doesn't actually take the thing way from others? Check that out, it's a thing. Also, if the B2 glam, the Bunny glam... and every caster robe glam that dudes wear hasn't made people with so-called 'traditional values' (what?) keel over... opening up choices for everyone to wear what they want... removing the gender-locks won't either. Just saying.

It's entitled because
1) Guys should have something nice for themselves, which has been improving
2) You act as if there aren't alterative to the jacket, when there's tons of them in game THAT ARE UNISEX. Not even counting the Bestman's gear, there's the Scion jacket, the lvl 60 Shire gear, the gear from St. Mocianne/Pharos Sirius HM, gear from Holminster Switch, some of the Scavaen gear, and others throughout the game. Again, all unisex options. If you hated dresses so much, you could've considered those. But the "wahhh!! I want this one!" when there's already a plethora of alternative options seems entitled to me.

And yeah, it's not a new phenomena, but it certainly kicked up in 2019 for some reason.

[Eloah]

Oh people complained just nowhere near as much because the quality between the two sets was equal, this year's Valentione day sets are not, the female one has an bit of a clipping problem especially with just standing around hands go through it, coupled this with the knowledge that removing genderlock on old gear pieces is being a thing (When is another matter) people are just wanting this bumped up in the queue to remove it faster since there are fewer suits for females.

Personal note I'd love the tights females get for my male characters yet we got another set of pants, your running out of trouser lengths SE (This one is slightly longer than Butler's while not as baggy as Clouds) :P

But the outfits are equal, it's clear that both outfits received a lot of time in their design. SE has been better at making both sets feel equal as of late, and not having the Male version be a sad recolor of an already existing piece if gear; looking at you Valentiones's apron and Witch's attire.

Clipping is sadly something the devs have stated they dont focus on all that much, because they arent going to design an outfit around a pose the player might only be in 2% of the time. Slow down some animations and take a look at some of the other outfits and you'll see a lot more clipping than you'd want to. The only issue is because females tend to have more "long assests" it tends to show up on them more. The best, personal, example I can give is with male lalafell arms the mesh for the underarm and shoulders aren't great and look horrible when the arms move a certain way with certain outfits. As far as I know females dont have that issue.

As for the pants, yeah I get that; yay more pants, but at least they look nice... That being said the tights look like they would be and interesting jester glam. Time to burn down things until I can wear them right, lol.

I love how people want to try to invalidate opinions with 'you're ENTITLED'... what a crock.

People want equality in the choices in how they glamour their characters, just like how they dress IRL. And it is no one's business how a person dresses IRL OR in-game. I'm a small petite girl IRL and I DESPISE frilly cute little dresses. I want bespoke vests and slacks for no other reasons than I find them more comfortable and freeing to move in. That's all. It's just my preference. And I find it more aesthetically pleasing to me. I should have that same freedom in-game. I've said so for LITERALLY YEARS. This isn't some new phenom just because I find 'this particular dress' unpalatable. It's the same for others.

'But Tsal, I haven't seen as many people saying so! That means it just hasn't been as big a deal!'

Well, that's bully for you? Maybe you weren't on the forums as much? Or weren't talking to EVERYONE? Your sample sizes are limited and skewed.

Also, NO ONE is trying to 'take away' the nice male glam. Just because they want to open up the CHOICE FOR EVERYONE doesn't mean it suddenly GOES AWAY from the dudes. Good grief. That's the most childish take I've seen yet. Kindergarten was supposed to teach people what sharing entailed, right? That opening things up to everyone doesn't actually take the thing way from others? Check that out, it's a thing. Also, if the B2 glam, the Bunny glam... and every caster robe glam that dudes wear hasn't made people with so-called 'traditional values' (what?) keel over... opening up choices for everyone to wear what they want... removing the gender-locks won't either. Just saying.

Look everyone is allowed an opinion, and I wont deny you yours. But I feel you are missing the point about why people are upset, that others were upset.

To start, SE said they were going to ease up on gender restrictions, and were looking to unlock some, that doesnt mean gender locking is disappearing all together. People seem to be in an uproar about the gender lock currently since they saw a bunch of things unlocked during a leak. But a majority of those things were wedding related, and Yoshi-P said in an interview they were unlocking the wedding attire so people could wear whatever they wanted. However, a lot of people were "annoyed" that the leak showed more unlocks for males than females, not remembering that all of the unlocks are available for females currently. Which in some peoples eyes made it look like males were getting more when that wasn't the case.

In regards to the current Valentione's day outfit. The reason some people are stating that the people who voiced displeasure with the dress are "Entitled" is because of how things played out. People didn't "disapprove" of the dress and then wait to give an honest opinion once they had access to it. It was automatically, "I don't like the dress give me the suit". This makes it seem like those voicing that displeasure expect to get the suit unlocked instead of just not likeing the dress.

Additionally, this situation might sound similar to the ones long ago, when the males clamoured for the unlocking of female outfits, but it is not. In those instances it wasnt that the males got a unique outfit they didn't enjoy. It was that males didn't get a unique outfit period, they always "shared" their outfit with females. Even with the bunny outfit, which was eventually unlocked, most people requested to at least get just the ears unlocked. Once things started getting fairer the player base calmed down. And the whole Viera/Hrothgar thing aside, SE has maintained fair gender glamours since at least late Heavensward early Stormblood.

I am not saying that people who play females should go through a stretch like the ones males went through. But, it does help to try and view things with a different perspective. Just because you think something isn't fair doesn't mean it's not. And sadly, this reward is fair. People not liking it is a personal bias and not SE showing favoritism for one gender or another.

PS. Clipping while an issue, isn't a factor in this topic as much as one might think. Because it's not so much a design flaw, as much as it's SE's lax rules on clipping in general. The male outfit clips too, not as much but it does.

[Reinha]

Also, NO ONE is trying to 'take away' the nice male glam. Just because they want to open up the CHOICE FOR EVERYONE doesn't mean it suddenly GOES AWAY from the dudes.

You're wrong. There isn't a trend in this game to get two thematically similar unisex outfits at the same time. It's either a single unisex outfit or two genderlocked outfits. They are not going to be releasing two unisex sets at once. Before you start accusing people of "making it their business what other people want their character model to wear", explain how getting just one set of glamour is not going to affect every player.

Getting a unisex 2B glam very much "took away" a Nier themed male outfit from the vast majority of people playing male characters. That's the end result of not making separate male and female glamours. It's childish to not acknowledge that certain outfits look so ridiculous on one gender that they can only function as joke glamours, and expect people to like the idea that half of future glamours are going to look stupid because they are designed for the other gender.

The Songbird and Riviera sets are examples of well made genderlocked outfits which no one threw a fit over. This new dress does have clipping issues, but I'd still rather have what we got than only the dress or only the suit as a unisex glamour like 2B.