Mentors...please!

[RajNish]

You make it seem like big pulls are hard...
At this point, you're just trying to find excuses for players that don't read tooltips.

No, I'm just telling about the difference in situations and the ability to adapt, instead of blindly following the "standard". Here is an example. Holminster Switch. This is not a difficult dungeon, mobs there are just fat, but in my group there were two first timers: a WHM and SAM. The WHM did well, but panicked. The SAM had problems with rotation. Dancer tried very hard to be effective, but his efforts were clearly not enough. These people were not so bad or lazy. But for many reasons, they could not do everything as a group of experienced players would. Okay, it's really not a problem. I made small pulls to not to stress people, especially WHM, because the damage of the group was very small. An extra five or ten minutes will not change anything.

[Lastelli]

No, I'm just telling about the difference in situations and the ability to adapt, instead of blindly following the "standard". Here is an example. Holminster Switch. This is not a difficult dungeon, mobs there are just fat, but in my group there were two first timers: a WHM and SAM. The WHM did well, but panicked. The SAM had problems with rotation. Dancer tried very hard to be effective, but his efforts were clearly not enough. These people were not so bad or lazy. But for many reasons, they could not do everything as a group of experienced players would. Okay, it's really not a problem. I made small pulls to not to stress people, especially WHM, because the damage of the group was very small. An extra five or ten minutes will not change anything.

The reason why wall-to-wall is the standard is that most players can blindly follow it and be successful. You're just describing a bad run. You said it yourself, the damage was very low. The dps were bad, period. No amount of sugarcoating will change that. DPS literally have one job: do their aoe rotation. That's easy. You're just adapting to a bad group, not to a different situation. But a standard is not determined by the lowest common denominator.

[RajNish]

The reason why wall-to-wall is the standard is that most players can blindly follow it and be successful. You're just describing a bad run. You said it yourself, the damage was very low. The dps were bad, period. No amount of sugarcoating will change that. DPS literally have one job: do their aoe rotation. That's easy. You're just adapting to a bad group, not to a different situation. But a standard is not determined by the lowest common denominator.

A group of first timers is not an equally bad group. Plus, you cannot make people act the way you want. For different reasons. After a few runs, these guys can be very good, they simply do not know the dungeon, and someone is able to improve their knowledge of the job. You can meet any group, and the only standard here is to analyze and proceed from what you have. In summary, even if I like big pulls and I think they are acceptable to myself, I will not force others to do as I like, this is the main thing I wanted to say.

[0xReki]

I don't care if it newbies or veterans in the group. If I have to use my invul skill in the first pull, or people pull more there will be no bigs pulls anymore. I can't risk it if people can't do their jobs.

I will pull more if I feel the group is ready for that.

[Lastelli]

After a few runs, these guys can be very good, they simply do not know the dungeon, and someone is able to improve their knowledge of the job.

Hollow excuses, and you know it. Dungeons are always the same: corridors connecting round boss arenas. There's nothing new to learn aside from the bosses' mechanics. Trash mobs, in particular, are always the same. Once in a while you may have a weird aoe, but that's the most unexpected thing that might happen, and even then it's not hard at all to dodge it while doing your aoe rotation.

And also the point here is not forcing others to play in a certain way. It's that there's a undisputed better way to play, both from a difficulty (big pulls are easy and aoe rotations are actually easier than single target rotations) and from a time efficiency (wall-to-wall pulls allow you to save around 10 minutes per dungeon) point of view, provided the party has a modicum of competence.

If a party is not able to manage that, it's a bad party, plain and simple. It means that 3 or all party members do not understand some of the fundamental mechanics of the game's combat system itself or how their jobs work. And if this happens in a lvl 71 dungeons, it's very concerning. And when that happens, players should be encouraged to step up, not be told that they'e fine because big pulls are something that only elite players do (which is obviously false).

[SoranRigel]

And also the point here is not forcing others to play in a certain way. It's that there's a undisputed better way to play, both from a difficulty (big pulls are easy and aoe rotations are actually easier than single target rotations) and from a time efficiency (wall-to-wall pulls allow you to save around 10 minutes per dungeon) point of view, provided the party has a modicum of competence.

If a party is not able to manage that, it's a bad party, plain and simple.

I am inexpressibly pleased with people who over and over again carry out the same (and, apparently, the only known to them) strategy, not paying attention to the changed realities and context.

And this is a good example of game egoism...
If the party, in your opinion, is not competent enough, do you intend to drop them again and again, taking big pulls of mobs from wall to wall?
This is the "only correct tactic" I see quite often.

[RajNish]

Hollow excuses, and you know it. Dungeons are always the same: corridors connecting round boss arenas. There's nothing new to learn aside from the bosses' mechanics. Trash mobs, in particular, are always the same. Once in a while you may have a weird aoe, but that's the most unexpected thing that might happen, and even then it's not hard at all to dodge it while doing your aoe rotation.

And also the point here is not forcing others to play in a certain way. It's that there's a undisputed better way to play, both from a difficulty (big pulls are easy and aoe rotations are actually easier than single target rotations) and from a time efficiency (wall-to-wall pulls allow you to save around 10 minutes per dungeon) point of view, provided the party has a modicum of competence.

If a party is not able to manage that, it's a bad party, plain and simple. It means that 3 or all party members do not understand some of the fundamental mechanics of the game's combat system itself or how their jobs work. And if this happens in a lvl 71 dungeons, it's very concerning. And when that happens, players should be encouraged to step up, not be told that they'e fine because big pulls are something that only elite players do (which is obviously false).

I do not need the excuses, and you know it. You do not know, why the player is "bad". Lazy, does not know rotation, just confused or something else. Therefore, since we playing for pleasure, and not work or weave someone’s whims, we have to find a compromise.

[Mahoukenshi]

Hollow excuses, and you know it. Dungeons are always the same: corridors connecting round boss arenas. There's nothing new to learn aside from the bosses' mechanics. Trash mobs, in particular, are always the same. Once in a while you may have a weird aoe, but that's the most unexpected thing that might happen, and even then it's not hard at all to dodge it while doing your aoe rotation.

And also the point here is not forcing others to play in a certain way. It's that there's a undisputed better way to play, both from a difficulty (big pulls are easy and aoe rotations are actually easier than single target rotations) and from a time efficiency (wall-to-wall pulls allow you to save around 10 minutes per dungeon) point of view, provided the party has a modicum of competence.

If a party is not able to manage that, it's a bad party, plain and simple. It means that 3 or all party members do not understand some of the fundamental mechanics of the game's combat system itself or how their jobs work. And if this happens in a lvl 71 dungeons, it's very concerning. And when that happens, players should be encouraged to step up, not be told that they'e fine because big pulls are something that only elite players do (which is obviously false).

Tryharding 101: How to talk like a totally elite bad@ss player in an MMO, written by Lastelli. Now in your local bookstore or in e-book format.

[AmeliaVerves]

If I have to use my invul skill in the first pull

You should always use your invuln on the 1st big pull. It's super efficient and you will get at least one more use of the invuln during the dungeon for another big pull.




On the topic of big pulls: I always pull wall to wall when entering a dungeon, if it is smooth I just keep going, if we wipe for whatever reason I either try it one more time (depends on why we wiped) or I do smaller pulls from there on. Trying the 'standard' way first is not a big deal imo and if it fails it's also not the end of the world. Either adapt or if I am really unpatient or unpleased about the situation I might as well make use of the tools SE gave and opt out, taking the 30min penalty.
Noone is obligated to play with me and neither am I obligated to play with everyone, so I decide if I think it's worth to keep going or not. This goes for every situation one might consider unpleasing. Bad players, arrogant players, afk players, rude players, whatever. I don't consider myself toxic, but I also think I have the right to leave any situation that is not worth my time/effort and spend it with other things instead.

[Lastelli]

Tryharding 101: How to talk like a totally elite bad@ss player in an MMO, written by Lastelli. Now in your local bookstore or in e-book format.

Pointing out that players that play as if they forgot to set half their skills on their hotbars should be encouraged to improve = tryharding?

Good lord...how low has the community gone...