Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[EaMett]

SE seem to not have wanted to add extreme versions of dungeons. They thought about it but never really committed to it. I wouldn't mind instead of that getting special achievements with rewards to make the content more challenging. Things like:

- complete in under x minutes
- complete without a tank or healer or both
- complete without using x/y/z skills (like the tank not being able to use provoke or aoe skills)

Etc. etc. Or any combination of the above. These could be challenging enough while remaining optional enough to keep some entertained.

[AngelCheese77]

So, hear me out. As much as most anyone else, I want to be done with my tome-grinding for the week in, well, as little time as it takes now, and I like having content that I can do in under 30 minutes.

So, dungeons in FF14 are used in a different way than in EQ2 or WoW, which are more side diversions to break up questing than with a story like FF14. You can get to top level in EQ2 and WoW without ever visiting a dungeon.

Also, by the first sentence in your main post, it seems you want stuff fast and easy, which FF14 doesn't do very ... well. You got to work for what you want. You can see the changes of dungeons from the beginning ones that have multiple paths and side areas to get PoIs from and chests, to linear ones with no deviations. I think that was a good idea as people get to a point they just go from point A to B in the quickest time.

Maybe I don't see the dungeon issues like you do right now, so to me they are fine.

[PyurBlue]

There is always a most efficient way of achieving a goal. Flexibility means you can sacrifice that efficiency if you value other things and it won't be such a detriment to your goal. If you want the most efficient method, then of course you've limited yourself to whatever is the most efficient method available.

If there is a most efficient method to do something, there is at least one. There is nothing limiting the number of solutions to one though. FF14 leveling is a good example. Leveling through roulettes is only efficient because of the "artificial" daily bonus. If that didn't exist, leveling a little every day would be as efficient as leveling in chunks every few days. A player aiming for efficiency would have a choice to make. Right now we don't. This is what makes roulettes restrictive.

Again, the reason I posed the question about roulettes, and how much systems should condition their players towards particular choices in the duration and locations of their playtime, is that as the game is increasingly streamlined, efficiency increasingly takes priority over engagement. We see this in the developers' designs and that does trickle down into player and community perceptions as to the shape and therefore intent of the game. (They then make requests for efficiency over engagement in ways that are easier for the devs to meet than requests for engagement over efficiency, and the feedback loop spirals on.)

This is a very good point, I feel the same at times. Requesting improved QoL is valid, but some suggestions just seem to be about streamlining the process of logging in, doing your allotted tasks, and then logging out.

[Shurrikhan]

Also, by the first sentence in your main post, it seems you want stuff fast and easy, which FF14 doesn't do very ... well. You got to work for what you want. You can see the changes of dungeons from the beginning ones that have multiple paths and side areas to get PoIs from and chests, to linear ones with no deviations. I think that was a good idea as people get to a point they just go from point A to B in the quickest time.

The two sentences after the two you quoted may help you to understand my intent, but they still leave much to guesswork, so I'll summarize briefly.

I think XIV does fast and easy fine, so long as one doesn't also want choice as to how they are engaged nor variation in what content is allowed them while still being fast and easy.

Personally, I don't care much about doing content fast nor, especially, it being easy, but I would like to see more choices of what can be done quickly while also being efficient relative to other content types, since all would benefit from such changes, instead of just the few like myself. This can be provided by changing the value and/or distribution of reward structures, and/or by diversifying the content that fits within the reward structure.

As reward structures constraint content and content constrains reward, however, our best bet is to do both at once. The spitball idea was an example of that: by making the reward less frequent, one is less encouraged to do as many counts of the affected content per week; that in turn allows for longer stretches of content when still limited in time per week. This allows for that bonus to affect a wider variety of content or, more generally, for the player to be directed towards a larger number of, or more distinct, choices.

[linay]

...

Ok, I think I understand more about your position, though I still disagree with it. For one, all the things that you say make the dungeons more relevant (relic quest/wondrous tail), I would still prefer to do them in the current dungeon structure rather than what ARR had. For another, experiences may vary, but for me, the current roulette system is sufficient to bring life to old content and add variety (though I won't necessarily oppose for making even more use of them). But I also look at it from a story perspective. Yes, running the same dungeon again is fine (I do it every day with roulette), but I'm also not opposed to content being just a stepping stone because that's how it works in the narrative. (That's why I do appreciate it when we do get to revisit a fight/location in the narrative that differentiates between the two encounters, such as normal vs hard mode trials/dungeons in ARR).

If there is a most efficient method to do something, there is at least one. There is nothing limiting the number of solutions to one though. FF14 leveling is a good example. Leveling through roulettes is only efficient because of the "artificial" daily bonus. If that didn't exist, leveling a little every day would be as efficient as leveling in chunks every few days. A player aiming for efficiency would have a choice to make. Right now we don't. This is what makes roulettes restrictive.

The choice is entirely your own. You don't have to choose the most efficient method if it's not how you want to spend your time. It may be efficient in exp/time, but there are other criteria by which you can value your time. For example, many people suggest deep dungeon as a fast way of leveling, especially for DPS like me. I am ok with running deep dungeon, but it's not my type of content, so I choose not to do it for leveling and only do it if I want something from it (other than exp) or if I am joining other people.

[PyurBlue]

The choice is entirely your own. You don't have to choose the most efficient method if it's not how you want to spend your time.

Unless what you want to spend time on has leveling as a prerequisite. One of the goals for me is to have more end game content (more capped jobs to play). This involves leveling. I could choose to not level efficiently, but then that just pushes the end goal further away. If running content directly provided the same XP as daily roulettes I'd have more ways of reaching the same level of efficiency, which I'd prefer.

It may be efficient in exp/time, but there are other criteria by which you can value your time. For example, many people suggest deep dungeon as a fast way of leveling, especially for DPS like me. I am ok with running deep dungeon, but it's not my type of content, so I choose not to do it for leveling and only do it if I want something from it (other than exp) or if I am joining other people.

That's true, XP/time isn't the only metric of value but you do have to take it into account if you want to do anything that has a level requirement. Most of the game has such requirements. While I don't have to level, there wouldn't be any point to playing if I didn't because I wouldn't be able to do anything I enjoyed.

[linay]

Unless what you want to spend time on has leveling as a prerequisite. One of the goals for me is to have more end game content (more capped jobs to play). This involves leveling. I could choose to not level efficiently, but then that just pushes the end goal further away. If running content directly provided the same XP as daily roulettes I'd have more ways of reaching the same level of efficiency, which I'd prefer.


That's true, XP/time isn't the only metric of value but you do have to take it into account if you want to do anything that has a level requirement. Most of the game has such requirements. While I don't have to level, there wouldn't be any point to playing if I didn't because I wouldn't be able to do anything I enjoyed.

And that's why end game content is time gated, so choosing the most efficient method isn't necessary unless you're just behind. And once you're caught up, you can remain that way without having to choose the most efficient way. But again, that's your choice to want to get to endgame faster.

EDIT: You know, maybe I'm going at this the wrong way. If you just want to get to endgame, then go do the roulette and spam the highest dungeon or do deep dungeon and run fate/hunt while queueing or do MSQ if you have it. You can get to max level in a day. Don't complain about the method since you're not time gated at all from leveling.

[Mixt]

So i have a few (slightly mean-spirited) ideas.

At the very start, in order to even get into the dungeon proper you have to solve a puzzle.

So you zoom into the instance, and right away there is a huge door barring your way, and the wall is lined with statues of voidsent with numbers on them.

To open the door you must interact with the correct statue.

To find out which statue is the right one you must answer a math question and interact with the statue with the number that corresponds to the correct answer.

Quick, what's 3+2?

Picking the wrong statue results in the player getting the message "There was a black hole in the statue's mouth" and then taking 9,999,999 damage.
The battle log goes "Player X was affected by Spaghettification, Player X has been defeated"


Then, one section of the dungeon is full of bottomless pits you have to navigate around while fighting mobs, if you fall into a pit you die.
In the middle of this area where there are very few safe places to stand a very special pack of mobs will spawn in.
The mobs?
"Mecha-Titan" robotic replicas of our favorite Primal.
And then you see the castbars.
"So"
"I"
"Heard"
"You"
"Like"
"Landslides"

Hilarity ensues.

[Floortank]

You can't invent new dungeon systems if you don't understand why the current dungeons are the way they are. And I know you don't understand that, because your replacement causes a lot of problems that the current design addresses.

You may not like the "fast food" approach to dungeons in XIV, but they are built for efficiency on the service end--to get as many players participating in and completing content as possible. To do this, they're relatively short and relatively similar to one another, with a few exciting but simple variations, so that by learning one, you have a good idea of how to do the next, even if you've never done it.

Edit: I'd go for a big crazy dungeon you can do all at once, or in shorter segments, saving your progress like Palace of the Dead, 1000%, but I wouldn't want that to replace the regular dungeon grind or tomestone farming method. Supplement it? Sure.

[Jojoya]

The answer is already in the game. It's been mentioned several times.

Most of the regular dungeons are part of the game's main story arc. Because they're being used to tell a story, they need to be experienced in a linear fashion so everyone experiences the same story. Because everyone has to do them to progress, they need to be suitable for the players who are limited in how long they can play in a single session and for varying skill levels.

If you want the variable layouts, the increasing difficulty, the longer time commitment, the ability to stop and go back to where you left off without starting over again... PotD/HoH are there for you.