Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Frosthaven]

For me, doing pre-nerf Pharos Sirius -- at least with more or less competent players without any significant attitude problems -- was intrinsically fun. It could have been better in a handful of different ways or an extra load of excitement or whatnot, but I quite enjoyed it. But that leaves two issues: I'm me, and may not be representative of most players, and that requires a group of "more or less competent players without any significant attitude problems".

-snip-

I'll spare you all the rant on examples of 'generally good' vs. 'noticeably flawed' design for now; I ask only that you trust that most of these so-called compromises aren't as clear-cut or zero-sum as they're made out to be. The challenge instead lies less in whom to target (and whom to leave out, by varying degree) as which processes are enjoyable and how can those processes be combined in such a way that more people feel like they've suffered little to no compromise in that content.

Well part of it is indeed my own cynicism from gaming for 30+ years. Over the years I've found myself more and more alone in what I consider fun, technical challenge.

I've seen MMOs die that I loved by trying to provide the kind of engagement I enjoyed. I've been in multiple cases where I'd proclaim to the skies "oh my now THIS is exhilarating!" only to see I'm one of 10 people that didn't hate the content a week later when heavy nerfs to it come out.

I don't need flashy rewards or anything, either. I play for the experience, engagement, and mastery.

I guess my point in all this is that I haven't "given up" so much as slowly accepted over the years that what I find fun is niche and I just have to adapt to what's popular since that is going to drive product decisions.

Gaming has kind of moved on without me in that regard, and I either adapt to it and take it for what it is or I really do "give up".

For what it's worth, it really lightened my mood to see this thread being made and I'll be following the discussion closely