Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Shurrikhan]

Edit:

While we're at it, if anyone has any fun ideas they'd like to see to augment or even fundamentally reshape the flow of dungeons as useful for midcore-ish content without being necessarily reiterative (for the most part, let's save that for the extent threads promoting something like a less bloated/pressured Mythic+), feel free to post them.

If we end up getting some fun ideas, and this thread somehow expands beyond a page, I'll quote them here for easy viewing and linking.


CONTENTS OF THE THREAD SO FAR:

1. Theoretical discussion on reward models and their impact on how players spend their time, be it in a way that better engages with or overly narrows the variety of content we may typically do.
2. Narrowing the above discussion to dungeons in particular, both insofar as what level of experimentation is desirable and what would be feasible.
3. General and specific gameplay loops people would like to see from more experimental dungeons.
4. Feasibility of more challenging and experimental content in general.
5. Complexities of appealing to the playerbase and of player perception/reception in general.
6. To what extent must the playerbase improve by broadening their views, taking more responsibility, and to an extent conforming to whatever expectations increase variety of playstyles that can be appealed to (such as by becoming more competent, so you can engage with more of the game) before we can really see further variety in content (especially midcore difficulty or a raised difficulty floor for everyone)?

KEY QUOTES:

Give me dungeons that aren't a purely linear ordeal and I'll bother doing them again. The old cliche SE gave us when they started streamlining dungeons back in ARR was "Nobody did the optional stuff", to which I rebut; Of course they didn't, you put literally nothing worth doing behind those optional sections. Naturally players aren't going to bother with a side passage to obtain some worthless gear that's never even relevant, or worse something incredibly lame like an X-potion... A NQ X-potion...Bring back dungeons with optional side paths, puzzles, heck maybe even throw in some optional mini-bosses? Then simply slap worthwhile rewards behind them. Tie them into things like Relic quests, rather than just "Clear this dungeon" as an objective, you can make "Clear this optional boss/puzzle/whatever in this dungeon" as an objective.

[Nalien]

While we're at it, if anyone has any fun ideas they'd like to see to augment or even fundamentally reshape the flow of dungeons as useful for midcore-ish, but not necessarily reiterative (for the most part, let's save that for the Mythic-like threads), content, feel free to post them.

Give me dungeons that aren't a purely linear ordeal and I'll bother doing them again. The old cliche SE gave us when they started streamlining dungeons back in ARR was "Nobody did the optional stuff", to which I rebut; Of course they didn't, you put literally nothing worth doing behind those optional sections. Naturally players aren't going to bother with a side passage to obtain some worthless gear that's never even relevant, or worse something incredibly lame like an X-potion... A NQ X-potion...

Bring back dungeons with optional side paths, puzzles, heck maybe even throw in some optional mini-bosses? Then simply slap worthwhile rewards behind them. Tie them into things like Relic quests, rather than just "Clear this dungeon" as an objective, you can make "Clear this optional boss/puzzle/whatever in this dungeon" as an objective. Slap some new Treasure Map style content into dungeons, so a person can get the party some additional rewards for a quick detour. Get creative with it, rather than just copy/pasting literally the same layout of trash to boss every. single. dungeon. Just something to break up the monotony of these linear snorefests. Average Duty Finder group not going to do that stuff? Honestly I don't care. That's not an argument against adding something, IMHO. The average Duty Finder Black Mage exclusively uses Ice spells, should we remove Fire spells based on that?

Heck, with something like puzzles you don't even need a party... Just extend the amount of time we can remain in a dungeon after clearing. Everyone who hates fun can then leave, and the rest of us can stay and go clear the puzzles for additional rewards. Something like how the Nier Raid handled its content perhaps? Just with a bit more meat to it. So you run through the dungeon, clear it, then you get to explore it afterwards, with additional challenges/rewards/lore/whatever behind that.

[Rufalus]

I'm going to spitball some dungeon ideas.

> You're chased by a demonwall or some kind of boss the entire run. Various adds along the way. Doesn't have 3 boss structure.

> Vehicle sections in a dungeon like the magitek armor in praetorium. Could involve flight or underwater travel, such as mounting a submersible and firing torpedoes at obstacles.

> Dungeon where the floor collapses and you dodge things during the fall, like the byakko skydive fight.

> You set minimum item level, the tome and gil reward is increased. Gives a reason to do harder instead of faster.

Btw the Expert roulette could be reserved for dungeons that are actually harder than normal difficulty. For dungeons that are just new, they could go straight into a lv80 roulette. Make expert mean expert.