Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[ForteNightshade]

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

You mean that content that doesn't remotely get hard until floor 80 out of 100? BA is probably the closest they've ever come to "harder" dungeons. And wouldn't you know it, that was widely praised alongside Ultimate as the best features that came out of Stormblood.

That isn't to say Deep Dungeon is bad. I actually rather enjoy it. But HoH suffered from the same issue dungeons have for years now: repetition. Virtually nothing changed or was innovated on.

[monk-dps]

You mean that content that doesn't remotely get hard until floor 80 out of 100? BA is probably the closest they've ever come to "harder" dungeons. And wouldn't you know it, that was widely praised alongside Ultimate as the best features that came out of Stormblood.

That isn't to say Deep Dungeon is bad. I actually rather enjoy it. But HoH suffered from the same issue dungeons have for years now: repetition. Virtually nothing changed or was innovated on.

Sadly you're going to get that no matter what tho. Gamers here have proven that most of the things asked for in practice they do not want. Noone actually wants random stuff in dungeons, or harder content cause when we did get it people all over the forums cried for nerfs. I will never forget Rath. That alone had people crying when it gave people what they asked for. As for a defense for deep dungeon. Solo it. The fact that VERY few people have proves people dont actually want this stuff. It literally has everything people claim to want. If more people actually did this instead of cry for nerfs when a boss yawns bigger -mist dragon- I think we would have harder dungeons. Until then..... the 2k page thread gets bigger and people stay bad.

[PyurBlue]

Sadly you're going to get that no matter what tho. Gamers here have proven that most of the things asked for in practice they do not want.

This is the wrong way to look at it. What actually happened was that many were happy, but others were not. Those who weren't were vocal, perhaps because they were the majority. The fix is simple, let them avoid the duty. This is why Savage works. It doesn't exist in roulettes, it's up to the player to take part.

Noone actually wants random stuff in dungeons, or harder content cause when we did get it people all over the forums cried for nerfs.

Constant threads like this show the opposite. There is a clear demand for harder content. It just needs to be added in a way that doesn't interfere with players who are looking for a more casual experience.

I will never forget Rath. That alone had people crying when it gave people what they asked for.

The trial also received praise for those very same things.

As for a defense for deep dungeon. Solo it.

This does help with the challenge aspect, although your ability to solo will vary drastically based on what class you play (or can play). It also means you're not playing in a group setting, which is one of the appeals of a MMO.

The fact that VERY few people have proves people dont actually want this stuff.

Or that there are issues with it, like excluding cooperative play and limiting class viability.

It literally has everything people claim to want. If more people actually did this instead of cry for nerfs when a boss yawns bigger -mist dragon- I think we would have harder dungeons. Until then..... the 2k page thread gets bigger and people stay bad.

If deep dungeons were the answer, this thread wouldn't exist. You're oversimplifying things way too much, maybe because the type of content being asked for doesn't interest you. That's completely fine, but if you think one piece of difficulty content is equivalent to any other and the details don't matter, you can't really tell me that what I want is already in the game. It's not.

[monk-dps]

This is the wrong way to look at it. What actually happened was that many were happy, but others were not. Those who weren't were vocal, perhaps because they were the majority. The fix is simple, let them avoid the duty. This is why Savage works. It doesn't exist in roulettes, it's up to the player to take part.


Constant threads like this show the opposite. There is a clear demand for harder content. It just needs to be added in a way that doesn't interfere with players who are looking for a more casual experience.


The trial also received praise for those very same things.


This does help with the challenge aspect, although your ability to solo will vary drastically based on what class you play (or can play). It also means you're not playing in a group setting, which is one of the appeals of a MMO.


Or that there are issues with it, like excluding cooperative play and limiting class viability.


If deep dungeons were the answer, this thread wouldn't exist. You're oversimplifying things way too much, maybe because the type of content being asked for doesn't interest you. That's completely fine, but if you think one piece of difficulty content is equivalent to any other and the details don't matter, you can't really tell me that what I want is already in the game. It's not.

Rath was shunned by an overly large bit of the playerbase for being - unfair- and other things when Rath was literally everything people apparently have been asking for. And yet hardly anyone did it and those that did it was like pulling teeth. Hell more people do it now siply because they can unsync it. Making the point of it pointless. And while you may want this stuff, the fact we have a very easy mode in the easiest part of the game - cause apparently people couldn't beat THOSE and yes... complained about it here - proves my point. Maybe I am oversimplifying it.. but I don't see why I shouldn't. Time and time again people ask for things to be harder and when SE DOES give us something the overall playerbase cries and complains until it's nerf. Have SE gotten better about not doing this .. yes. but the damage is already done. Hell asking for more dungeons when we only get 1 dungeon per patch now is funny.. they aren't making more.. they are making less.


What should be being asked isn't harder dungeons... but fixes and systems to make the over all playerbase BETTER so we can get harder content in the mainline of the game. Because as long as the playerbase sucks it'll never be a gain to make things harder. Ultimate doesn't count cause that is using old assets and if they had to make new ones it wouldn't be here. The reaosn we have it is because it's not extra work. - Even tho even THAT was limited once upon a time. go firgure....-

[Draken]

I would rather see branching dungeons, which lead to different rewards and or mechanics.

[Nestama]

I just can't see challenging dungeons happening (again) any time soon. SE would have to redo (buff) older dungeons so that future dungeons can be challenging from the get go. Otherwise, like I said before, we just get Pharos Sirius 2.1 situation again.

If it's too hard and there are easier options available, then people will leave ASAP, or not use Roulette at all and just queue for the fastest clears (Brayflox HM style).

[Limecat]

Rather than optional sections that people will ignore unless something inside is absolutely valuable, I'd rather they set dungeons up so that each leg has two or three different possible paths, and which ones make up your current run are decided randomly. Some could be more mechanic and gimmick-heavy, some with more mobs, but all geared towards the intention of taking the same completion time. I'd also like to see something along the lines of personal optional rewards, where something the player can do individually nets them something useful. Say you avoid certain mechanics perfectly during a boss, you personally get an extra VIII materia, or extra such-and-such weapon light, etc. Incentives to be more than an auto-pilot derp.

[StriderShinryu]

Rather than optional sections that people will ignore unless something inside is absolutely valuable, I'd rather they set dungeons up so that each leg has two or three different possible paths, and which ones make up your current run are decided randomly. Some could be more mechanic and gimmick-heavy, some with more mobs, but all geared towards the intention of taking the same completion time. I'd also like to see something along the lines of personal optional rewards, where something the player can do individually nets them something useful. Say you avoid certain mechanics perfectly during a boss, you personally get an extra VIII materia, or extra such-and-such weapon light, etc. Incentives to be more than an auto-pilot derp.

I like these ideas, and they were sort of what I was hoping for in the procedurally generated dungeons we've had but that fell quite short.

[Tsalmaveth]

Rath was a mess because they tried to take what was in another game and transplant it into THIS game without also adding in the mechanics of that game, the dodging. Saying it was 'giving us what we wanted' is completely disingenuous and wrong. I don't know where you're coming from on that... at all? The Rath fight was literally an event fight and they did a better job taking the FFXIV monster and transplanting that into MHW than Rath into FFXIV simply because of the mechanics issues. FFXIV doesn't have the dodge-roll and that makes Rath a MESS. Point blank. So people found a way round it in CHEESING him with four tanks. Healers are almost useless outside of being around to cleanse. Outside of that, everyone else is just asking for cart-bait.

So no, Rath was not 'giving us what we asked for'... it was trading monsters in an event.

[monk-dps]

Rath was a mess because they tried to take what was in another game and transplant it into THIS game without also adding in the mechanics of that game, the dodging. Saying it was 'giving us what we wanted' is completely disingenuous and wrong. I don't know where you're coming from on that... at all? The Rath fight was literally an event fight and they did a better job taking the FFXIV monster and transplanting that into MHW than Rath into FFXIV simply because of the mechanics issues. FFXIV doesn't have the dodge-roll and that makes Rath a MESS. Point blank. So people found a way round it in CHEESING him with four tanks. Healers are almost useless outside of being around to cleanse. Outside of that, everyone else is just asking for cart-bait.

So no, Rath was not 'giving us what we asked for'... it was trading monsters in an event.

So people didn't ask for 4 man extremes? People didn't ask for random mechs in things? I seem to remember those things being asked.. so yes they actually did. And like I said it was a start. People cheesed it because they couldn't do it normally cause of a lack of skill. I ran into so many people who couldn't understand simple things like moving out the way. It was a mess. That fight showed just how bad the playerbase is at this game. It's pretty bad. I'm not saying it was perfect.. but it did give people things they wanted.