Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[EaMett]

SE seem to not have wanted to add extreme versions of dungeons. They thought about it but never really committed to it. I wouldn't mind instead of that getting special achievements with rewards to make the content more challenging. Things like:

- complete in under x minutes
- complete without a tank or healer or both
- complete without using x/y/z skills (like the tank not being able to use provoke or aoe skills)

Etc. etc. Or any combination of the above. These could be challenging enough while remaining optional enough to keep some entertained.

[AngelCheese77]

So, hear me out. As much as most anyone else, I want to be done with my tome-grinding for the week in, well, as little time as it takes now, and I like having content that I can do in under 30 minutes.

So, dungeons in FF14 are used in a different way than in EQ2 or WoW, which are more side diversions to break up questing than with a story like FF14. You can get to top level in EQ2 and WoW without ever visiting a dungeon.

Also, by the first sentence in your main post, it seems you want stuff fast and easy, which FF14 doesn't do very ... well. You got to work for what you want. You can see the changes of dungeons from the beginning ones that have multiple paths and side areas to get PoIs from and chests, to linear ones with no deviations. I think that was a good idea as people get to a point they just go from point A to B in the quickest time.

Maybe I don't see the dungeon issues like you do right now, so to me they are fine.

[Shurrikhan]

Also, by the first sentence in your main post, it seems you want stuff fast and easy, which FF14 doesn't do very ... well. You got to work for what you want. You can see the changes of dungeons from the beginning ones that have multiple paths and side areas to get PoIs from and chests, to linear ones with no deviations. I think that was a good idea as people get to a point they just go from point A to B in the quickest time.

The two sentences after the two you quoted may help you to understand my intent, but they still leave much to guesswork, so I'll summarize briefly.

I think XIV does fast and easy fine, so long as one doesn't also want choice as to how they are engaged nor variation in what content is allowed them while still being fast and easy.

Personally, I don't care much about doing content fast nor, especially, it being easy, but I would like to see more choices of what can be done quickly while also being efficient relative to other content types, since all would benefit from such changes, instead of just the few like myself. This can be provided by changing the value and/or distribution of reward structures, and/or by diversifying the content that fits within the reward structure.

As reward structures constraint content and content constrains reward, however, our best bet is to do both at once. The spitball idea was an example of that: by making the reward less frequent, one is less encouraged to do as many counts of the affected content per week; that in turn allows for longer stretches of content when still limited in time per week. This allows for that bonus to affect a wider variety of content or, more generally, for the player to be directed towards a larger number of, or more distinct, choices.

[Mixt]

So i have a few (slightly mean-spirited) ideas.

At the very start, in order to even get into the dungeon proper you have to solve a puzzle.

So you zoom into the instance, and right away there is a huge door barring your way, and the wall is lined with statues of voidsent with numbers on them.

To open the door you must interact with the correct statue.

To find out which statue is the right one you must answer a math question and interact with the statue with the number that corresponds to the correct answer.

Quick, what's 3+2?

Picking the wrong statue results in the player getting the message "There was a black hole in the statue's mouth" and then taking 9,999,999 damage.
The battle log goes "Player X was affected by Spaghettification, Player X has been defeated"


Then, one section of the dungeon is full of bottomless pits you have to navigate around while fighting mobs, if you fall into a pit you die.
In the middle of this area where there are very few safe places to stand a very special pack of mobs will spawn in.
The mobs?
"Mecha-Titan" robotic replicas of our favorite Primal.
And then you see the castbars.
"So"
"I"
"Heard"
"You"
"Like"
"Landslides"

Hilarity ensues.

[Floortank]

You can't invent new dungeon systems if you don't understand why the current dungeons are the way they are. And I know you don't understand that, because your replacement causes a lot of problems that the current design addresses.

You may not like the "fast food" approach to dungeons in XIV, but they are built for efficiency on the service end--to get as many players participating in and completing content as possible. To do this, they're relatively short and relatively similar to one another, with a few exciting but simple variations, so that by learning one, you have a good idea of how to do the next, even if you've never done it.

Edit: I'd go for a big crazy dungeon you can do all at once, or in shorter segments, saving your progress like Palace of the Dead, 1000%, but I wouldn't want that to replace the regular dungeon grind or tomestone farming method. Supplement it? Sure.

[Jojoya]

The answer is already in the game. It's been mentioned several times.

Most of the regular dungeons are part of the game's main story arc. Because they're being used to tell a story, they need to be experienced in a linear fashion so everyone experiences the same story. Because everyone has to do them to progress, they need to be suitable for the players who are limited in how long they can play in a single session and for varying skill levels.

If you want the variable layouts, the increasing difficulty, the longer time commitment, the ability to stop and go back to where you left off without starting over again... PotD/HoH are there for you.

[Shurrikhan]

You can't invent new dungeon systems if you don't understand why the current dungeons are the way they are.

I would generally agree, but perhaps you can quote the parts that evidence a lack of understanding, while being clear of whom you're responding to? As the OP, I'll assume that's me for now.

And I know you don't understand that, because your replacement causes a lot of problems that the current design addresses.

Again, without any indication of whom you're responding to or indicating what portion of their ideas you've read, you prevent any honest discussion with you or about your concerns.

You may not like the "fast food" approach to dungeons in XIV, but they are built for efficiency on the service end--to get as many players participating in and completing content as possible. To do this, they're relatively short and relatively similar to one another, with a few exciting but simple variations, so that by learning one, you have a good idea of how to do the next, even if you've never done it.

As someone who can be misread as disliking outright the "fast food approach to dungeons in XIV", let me offer some balancing logic.

One need look no further than WoW to see where prioritizing breadth of engagement (as measured by players' time played and the percentage of players to complete a given piece of content) can reach a lower product than when prioritizing both breadth and depth of engagement.

Edit: I'd go for a big crazy dungeon you can do all at once, or in shorter segments, saving your progress like Palace of the Dead, 1000%, but I wouldn't want that to replace the regular dungeon grind or tomestone farming method. Supplement it? Sure.

I'm looking for where anyone beside perhaps myself has suggested outright that we replace even the MSQ dungeons (the only ones thus constrained) with more experimental varieties, but I'm not seeing it.

So, let me clarify my own part, since I was not especially clear when spitballing this thread with just a random idea on reward systems. (My interest was primarily on seeing whether players would even like experimental dungeons at all and would be willing to see arbitrary reward systems adjusted slightly if it meant more player freedom.) My intent was to only suggest that reward systems don't have to be left exactly as they've been if it would otherwise mean that different, more experimental takes on dungeons could qualify as the sort of experimental content that can be afforded by making fewer standard dungeons.

That's only relevant, of course, if anyone wants to see more experimental dungeons in the first place. Judging by the likes on either side across this thread, many do, but not enough to compete with Eureka, Aquapolis-like, and PotD-like content*. (*Some here have argued that PotD and HoH effectively are the experimental dungeons that others' have been asking for and that those posters' desires are therefore redundant, but I have trouble seeing why that would be the case; to me, at least, PotD/HoH has as more in common, even, with being a small party on its own in Eureka or doing Aquapolis-like content than it has with a dungeon, however experimental, especially if going by the ideas posted thus far.)

[monk-dps]

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

[PyurBlue]

And that's why end game content is time gated, so choosing the most efficient method isn't necessary unless you're just behind. And once you're caught up, you can remain that way without having to choose the most efficient way. But again, that's your choice to want to get to endgame faster.

EDIT: You know, maybe I'm going at this the wrong way. If you just want to get to endgame, then go do the roulette and spam the highest dungeon or do deep dungeon and run fate/hunt while queueing or do MSQ if you have it. You can get to max level in a day. Don't complain about the method since you're not time gated at all from leveling.

The concern isn't the absolute time spent to reach the level cap. I know that it's possible to run dungeons after the roulette to continue leveling, but that requires the willingness to do nothing but leveling during my play session and to have enough free time to level from X to 80, if I'm going to do it in a day or two.

You've given quite a few suggestions on how I might better manage my time leveling, but I've actually taken the the points that you've brought up into consideration already. Given the way I work and given the way the game works, I end up having to do leveling roulettes daily if I want to get anywhere level-wise. I'd rather not keep up the daily schedule though since leveling isn't what makes me want to play. It would be even better if the game offered more interesting content like what's being asked for in this thread that I could focus on playing through instead of roulettes.

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

Deep Dungeons are a potentially good concept that aren't well executed in my opinion. They're not the same as difficult dungeons. I don't like that their difficulty ramps up slowly (and that you have to relevel, even if it's accelerated). Early on they are way too easy. Dungeons on the other hand are set to be a particular difficulty. Ideally this difficulty should be raised compared to now but players participating should be challenged right from their first run. The random status effects at the beginning of floors in Deep Dungeons do more harm than good in my opinion. I don't really want the way my character works to change constantly for no real reason, especially stuff like taking away your skills.

PotD and HoH do some stuff right, like randomized layouts and enemies. This keeps things from getting too stale and makes it so you can't just memorize your way past difficulty. If I were creating content from scratch though, I would definitely use regular dungeons as a base rather than deep dungeons. Set difficulty designed to challenge players, consistent gameplay, variable environment and enemies.

[linay]

The concern isn't the absolute time spent to reach the level cap. I know that it's possible to run dungeons after the roulette to continue leveling, but that requires the willingness to do nothing but leveling during my play session and to have enough free time to level from X to 80, if I'm going to do it in a day or two.

You've given quite a few suggestions on how I might better manage my time leveling, but I've actually taken the the points that you've brought up into consideration already. Given the way I work and given the way the game works, I end up having to do leveling roulettes daily if I want to get anywhere level-wise. I'd rather not keep up the daily schedule though since leveling isn't what makes me want to play. It would be even better if the game offered more interesting content like what's being asked for in this thread that I could focus on playing through instead of roulettes.

I kind of get the feeling that what's been asked for in this thread is more suited for end game content than leveling. Regardless, it is your choice to make whether to prioritize leveling or something else. I think they've made leveling easy and fast enough for most people, though obviously they can't please everyone. I also think that what's been asked in this thread (even if it's for leveling content) might cause more problem for more people than it might "solve" for others.