Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Nedkel]

Short answer is the casuals.

Long answer; the devs would rather cater to casuals over midcore and hardcore players(which their main demographic is midcore and hardcore playerbase).

Their is nothing wrong with catering to casuals so long as it doesn't come at the cost of the midcore and hardcore playerbase, but from a business perspective, if I had to choose between excluding casuals for more midcore and hardcore players to earn more money in the long run, I would choose the midcore and hardcore playerbase in a heartbeat.

But they are giving more to hardcores that they do to casuals.
Casuals only have now 1 dung per patch and 1 alliance raid per patch which allows them to get some significant rewards.

[Lastelli]

But they are giving more to hardcores that they do to casuals.
Casuals only have now 1 dung per patch and 1 alliance raid per patch which allows them to get some significant rewards.

The only piece of hardcore content is ultimate raids, and we get 2 every 2 years.
Savage content isn't really challenging enough to be considered "hc content", not when the last several tiers were cleared in 1-2 days. Devs want many players to do savage content, including casual players, that's why they made it easier and introduced the ultimate difficulty to give something to those players that want a real challenge. People being too scared or too lazy to try it doesn't really make it hardcore content.
Also, I believe crafting, gathering, housing, pvp (excluding ranked feast I suppose), msq, sub quests, beast tribes, eureka, gold saucer, blu mage and so on can be considered very casual friendly (in addition to dungeons and 24 man raids).
If anything, this game is very casual oriented. Not saying it's necesserily a bad thing, but reading that devs are giving more to hc players is frankly quite hilarious.

[linay]

People being too scared or too lazy to try it doesn't really make it hardcore content.

Arguably, it is, because that's one meaningful distinction you can make.

Regardless, any content you have to use the party finder (at least, for NA, maybe EU as well) due to difficulty is definitely not casual content. So if you want to argue that current Savage raid is not hardcore content, you can sort that out with the people who say there is no midcore content, because neither Savage raid nor (arguably) Extreme trial is casual content.

[Lastelli]

Arguably, it is, because that's one meaningful distinction you can make.

Regardless, any content you have to use the party finder (at least, for NA, maybe EU as well) due to difficulty is definitely not casual content. So if you want to argue that current Savage raid is not hardcore content, you can sort that out with the people who say there is no midcore content, because neither Savage raid nor (arguably) Extreme trial is casual content.

I'd argue that the way many people think about casual content is wrong. It really looks like "casual content" is self-completing content to you guys. Content you can join and clear without knowing a thing about the game or your job and without being accountable for you actions since you can just be carried by the rest of the party/alliance. That's the case for dungeons and most of the 24 man raids.

I'd say casual content is content that can be cleared reasonably fast with some practice by a group of coordinated people without serious physical or mental disabilities.

Now, clearly difficulty is subjective. Some people don't understand crafting rotations and find them difficult, but I think no one in their right mind would then proceed to define crafting as "hardcore content". But at the very least, extreme trials and the first 2-3 turns of savage can hardly be defined hardcore content. They just require you to...play and think, I guess? But I do realized that when the rest of the game can be completed with zero effort, even that may look like an ordeal.

Personally, I would define ex trials and the first turn of a savage tier as very casual friendly.

[linay]

I'd argue that the way many people think about casual content is wrong. It really looks like "casual content" is self-completing content to you guys. Content you can join and clear without knowing a thing about the game or your job and without being accountable for you actions since you can just be carried by the rest of the party/alliance. That's the case for dungeons and most of the 24 man raids.

I'd say casual content is content that can be cleared reasonably fast with some practice by a group of coordinated people without serious physical or mental disabilities.

Now, clearly difficulty is subjective. Some people don't understand crafting rotations and find them difficult, but I think no one in their right mind would then proceed to define crafting as "hardcore content". But at the very least, extreme trials and the first 2-3 turns of savage can hardly be defined hardcore content. They just require you to...play and think, I guess? But I do realized that when the rest of the game can be completed with zero effort, even that may look like an ordeal.

Personally, I would define ex trials and the first turn of a savage tier as very casual friendly.

Casual content is something you can do casually. There are two applicable meanings: either content that you can do in a relaxed/unconcerned manner and/or content that you can do in a noncommittal/impermanent/irregular manner.

When the NA community decides it has to use the party finder to clear Extreme trials and Savage raids (including the first turn of each tier), it has branded those contents as non-casual.

Again, if you have a problem with the label of hardcore, you can take it up with the people who might not agree that they are midcore contents, because those are the only two valid options as far as the NA community is concerned.

P.S. On the matter of being carried, that's just the nature of group content, but enough people still have to know what they're doing to get a clear. Even solo instanced duty can be failed, so you do have to know something about the game and you are accountable for your action for all contents. The difference between each content is just the degree to which the party can accommodate your weaknesses.

[Barraind]

Killing the Coeurl in Brayflux is pointless after the novelty wears off since he offers nothing and is ultimately a slightly stronger trash mob. If my reward for going down that pathway is a X-Potion. Well, once I've seen the aesthetic a couple times, I no longer care. I have no reason to.

His chest has rings in it, which were actually really good for the level, prior to having brand-new ring that lasts you until your 40's.

Now that you'll likely level from 32 to 35 in your first brayflox run (or from 40 to 42/43 if you have road to 70, lol), its significantly less good.

[reivaxe]

I don't think this game is designed well for optional paths in dngs.

The carrot at the end of ANY stick is just cosmetics (Glam, minions, mounts, Hairs, titles) or vertical stat growth. That's it really. Level cap dngs can never have gear that's better that the raid gear cause that raid gear is made as a carrot/ reward for the 2% of folks who actually bother to do the hardest content. Without raiding your best stats come one way or another from grinding tomes which are the reward from completing a dng.

"Have a path that leads to a rare crafting mat" Not great. That is already the goal of maps (the stick), to have rare mats drop that are NEEDED for cool glam (the carrot). If ALL you want is the mat then you will do which ever is easiest, right?
Make it a different mat that's needed? This game already suffers from mat inflation, too many things in this game are only used to make 1-2 items because they need to keep giving crafters reasons to do XYZ content ... People are not gonna be happy sitting in a dng for 45-50mins just for a chance to get a mat they may need more than 1 of just to make a glam. And if you don't make it rare it will become worth less in no time and "Uhhhg, this tank is taking us down this path to get a thing that goes for 8K on the MB?!?!".

If this game had horizontal gear growth then sure, I could see going to a leveling dngs for a hand gear that has a trait or skill that's good for a level cap build you're making. And that special gear could be on an optional path (that you use PF to farm as to not annoy the people who don't care about that optional path). That's how some MMOs work and how I HOPE the next big FF MMO works. But that aint how this game works.

[Barraind]

the fact is that the casual gamers have always paid the bills for MMOs while the "hardcore" reap the reward

That depends on which of the numerous axis' you're choosing to define hardcore on at any given time.

Theres multiple games which only have a "hardcore" base, and theres several who make more money off a hardcore base than the "casual" base.

The freemium model of games, MMO's included, is overly dependent on the whale spenders to stay alive, and theres entire sections of the industry dedicated to the psychological manipulation of the reward cycle to promote that spending.


I've worked with publishers that make clash of clans style games with different skins and korean-style MMO's. The top .2% of spenders spend more than the entire "casual" base combined, per month.

[Vulcann]

That depends on which of the numerous axis' you're choosing to define hardcore on at any given time.

Theres multiple games which only have a "hardcore" base, and theres several who make more money off a hardcore base than the "casual" base.

The freemium model of games, MMO's included, is overly dependent on the whale spenders to stay alive, and theres entire sections of the industry dedicated to the psychological manipulation of the reward cycle to promote that spending.


I've worked with publishers that make clash of clans style games with different skins and korean-style MMO's. The top .2% of spenders spend more than the entire "casual" base combined, per month.

this is a subscription based MMO, should have been obvious that i was talking about those not Korean p2w cash grabs that rely on whales.

[frostmagemari]

this is a subscription based MMO, should have been obvious that i was talking about those not Korean p2w cash grabs that rely on whales.

This may as well be considered one of those kinds of games, really. The last word was (unless it changed since then) that only the game sales and mogstation sales get fed back into XIV, while the subscription and other services get used to fund other SQEX projects.