Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Nedkel]

First and foremost we need 2 different levels of dungeons.

Ones we have right now, that are not too hard to finish.
Second ones that are a lot harder with random mobs generated around the map and bosses tougher and with more skills.

The higher lvl difficulty dungeons should have more chests and allow us to buy BIS gear giving us tokens of whatever it takes to buy it from vendor.

[yukiiyuki]

And now we wont get any, because we have only 1 dungeon left and it must be tweaked so people could use trusts, therefore nothing will change. Glad that more people starting to see problem that happening right now with this game and what community desires from it.

[lolicon09]

Because some people will bitch about it, followed by the other bunch who love to do the same as the first few. I belive this is why 8-man "raids" turned into boss fights with slightly more mechanics

[monk-dps]

The fanbase did this to themselves when they cried for nerfs years ago. Hell gaming as a whole has suffered from this. Plus I'll be honest. I don't want it either. Not when we have a thread over 2k pages long cause people cant press buttons. Sorry.

[Roth_Trailfinder]

I liked ARR’s dungeon pace. TWO dungeons per patch (one MSQ, one optional). They were still as immersive as the later ones mentioned earlier in this thread.

As far as optional parts to the dungeons, OF COURSE they are going to be skipped over by most people. The DUNGEON DROPS are generally skipped over by most people, let alone crafting gear that needs to be repaired or relic bits once one’s done with that relic. Make optional portions of the dungeon THAT DROP TOMESTONES and people will start to do them. Tomestones are the main reason people run the things after their first visit, after all. Right now, dungeon drops generally serve to pay retainers, and that’s all.

I for one would love to see a dungeon run give Tomestones per chest, and a few extra on the side path (enough that visiting it will give you an additional 15% of the tomestones). Give everyone in the dungeon a job-usable drop as an auto reward for beating the final boss, subject to the Unique tags on the gear. If and only if they have every single piece of taht gear set, then start giving out randomly selected pieces usable by other jobs. Drop the hit-or-miss content and go back to two dungeons per patch to ensure some variety when running the DR’s. Three every two patches is not enough, let alone one every patch. One every patch will do nothing but make people even more sick of each dungeon than they already are. That sickness existed in a much less vitriolic form with two dungeons per patch, and has only gotten worse each time the dungeons per patch have been reduced.

[Shurrikhan]

I liked ARR’s dungeon pace. TWO dungeons per patch (one MSQ, one optional). They were still as immersive as the later ones mentioned earlier in this thread.

As far as optional parts to the dungeons, OF COURSE they are going to be skipped over by most people. The DUNGEON DROPS are generally skipped over by most people, let alone crafting gear that needs to be repaired or relic bits once one’s done with that relic. Make optional portions of the dungeon THAT DROP TOMESTONES and people will start to do them. Tomestones are the main reason people run the things after their first visit, after all. Right now, dungeon drops generally serve to pay retainers, and that’s all.

I for one would love to see a dungeon run give Tomestones per chest, and a few extra on the side path (enough that visiting it will give you an additional 15% of the tomestones). Give everyone in the dungeon a job-usable drop as an auto reward for beating the final boss, subject to the Unique tags on the gear. If and only if they have every single piece of that gear set, then start giving out randomly selected pieces usable by other jobs.

I'm wondering what the full extent of that would look like under optimized practice, though? Does that just turn into players each splitting up into n groups, running into their respective side-paths, looting, and retreating into an AoE gather? I could imagine the novelty if we could still lock out mobs like back in Wanderer's Palace spams, but, again, while we can certainly make people actually do side-paths (at least those who won't cap off just the daily roulette bonus alone), what is that gameplay actually going to look like? Something new, different, is usually but not necessarily better, and not back-tracking does at least have some aesthetic advantages.

Just a bit more food for thought: Can we reward tomes for using (or preparing) different options? Let's say in a given dungeon we have to get past a chasm. We can do this via swinging across, which requires us a rope, or by lowering the drawbridge, which in old Wanderer's Palace fashion, requires lubricant on the lever assembly. There's a special section of your Key Items that is just for dungeon stuff. The more the party has collected while you've been there, the more tomes you get when you complete, quit out, or maybe even are kicked out of a dungeon. In that way, it works like the chests, but at least it doesn't always look like a chest, for a bit more variance and hopefully engagement.

[ACE135]

I don't understand the people who say they want optional/non-linear stuff in the dungeons because they are boring but also say they will just do the optional stuff if it grants them (in their opinion) high rewards as compensation for doing the extra stuff. So do they want more variety to make dungeons less boring/linear or just an easy way to get more rewards for very little more "effort"/time? Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

[lolicon09]

Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

Saddly, it's not. Not for most people in this community at least.

[Nalien]

I don't understand the people who say they want optional/non-linear stuff in the dungeons because they are boring but also say they will just do the optional stuff if it grants them (in their opinion) high rewards as compensation for doing the extra stuff. So do they want more variety to make dungeons less boring/linear or just an easy way to get more rewards for very little more "effort"/time? Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

Depends what we're talking about.

Just adding branching paths? That requires no additional reward. Some people will always take the "meta" route for faster clears, others wont care. I'd assume each branch gives the same rewards and it's just a matter of taking the route you want to break up monotony.

If we're talking puzzles, entirely optional enemies, bosses, and treasure chests? Things that take much more time? That requires additional rewards, because otherwise what's the actual point in doing it? Can do it just for fun, sure, but there are plenty of other things I can do "just for fun" that also have rewards. I'll just do those instead and continue to ignore dungeons.

Honestly, I don't understand why anyone would be against additional rewards in dungeons... More reason to do them beyond the dull daily 90 tomestones isn't a bad thing, IMO. I'd also say it's perhaps a better means to reward things like Minions and music scrolls, than the existing RNG on final boss.

[ForteNightshade]

I don't understand the people who say they want optional/non-linear stuff in the dungeons because they are boring but also say they will just do the optional stuff if it grants them (in their opinion) high rewards as compensation for doing the extra stuff. So do they want more variety to make dungeons less boring/linear or just an easy way to get more rewards for very little more "effort"/time? Shouldn't the fact of more variety in dungeons be enough of a reward?

Because at that point, you're adding variety for variety sake. Say they included winding pathways, some lore tidbits and even a sort of mini-boss. After going through everything a handful of times, what incentive do I have to keep going down these pathways or fighting this weaker boss when I've seen it all? The whole point of rewards is to give a tangible reason to repeat things you've already done. Killing the Coeurl in Brayflux is pointless after the novelty wears off since he offers nothing and is ultimately a slightly stronger trash mob. If my reward for going down that pathway is a X-Potion. Well, once I've seen the aesthetic a couple times, I no longer care. I have no reason to.