Why can't Dungeons be longer/harder, but more... piecework?

[Shurrikhan]

You can't invent new dungeon systems if you don't understand why the current dungeons are the way they are.

I would generally agree, but perhaps you can quote the parts that evidence a lack of understanding, while being clear of whom you're responding to? As the OP, I'll assume that's me for now.

And I know you don't understand that, because your replacement causes a lot of problems that the current design addresses.

Again, without any indication of whom you're responding to or indicating what portion of their ideas you've read, you prevent any honest discussion with you or about your concerns.

You may not like the "fast food" approach to dungeons in XIV, but they are built for efficiency on the service end--to get as many players participating in and completing content as possible. To do this, they're relatively short and relatively similar to one another, with a few exciting but simple variations, so that by learning one, you have a good idea of how to do the next, even if you've never done it.

As someone who can be misread as disliking outright the "fast food approach to dungeons in XIV", let me offer some balancing logic.

One need look no further than WoW to see where prioritizing breadth of engagement (as measured by players' time played and the percentage of players to complete a given piece of content) can reach a lower product than when prioritizing both breadth and depth of engagement.

Edit: I'd go for a big crazy dungeon you can do all at once, or in shorter segments, saving your progress like Palace of the Dead, 1000%, but I wouldn't want that to replace the regular dungeon grind or tomestone farming method. Supplement it? Sure.

I'm looking for where anyone beside perhaps myself has suggested outright that we replace even the MSQ dungeons (the only ones thus constrained) with more experimental varieties, but I'm not seeing it.

So, let me clarify my own part, since I was not especially clear when spitballing this thread with just a random idea on reward systems. (My interest was primarily on seeing whether players would even like experimental dungeons at all and would be willing to see arbitrary reward systems adjusted slightly if it meant more player freedom.) My intent was to only suggest that reward systems don't have to be left exactly as they've been if it would otherwise mean that different, more experimental takes on dungeons could qualify as the sort of experimental content that can be afforded by making fewer standard dungeons.

That's only relevant, of course, if anyone wants to see more experimental dungeons in the first place. Judging by the likes on either side across this thread, many do, but not enough to compete with Eureka, Aquapolis-like, and PotD-like content*. (*Some here have argued that PotD and HoH effectively are the experimental dungeons that others' have been asking for and that those posters' desires are therefore redundant, but I have trouble seeing why that would be the case; to me, at least, PotD/HoH has as more in common, even, with being a small party on its own in Eureka or doing Aquapolis-like content than it has with a dungeon, however experimental, especially if going by the ideas posted thus far.)

[monk-dps]

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

[PyurBlue]

And that's why end game content is time gated, so choosing the most efficient method isn't necessary unless you're just behind. And once you're caught up, you can remain that way without having to choose the most efficient way. But again, that's your choice to want to get to endgame faster.

EDIT: You know, maybe I'm going at this the wrong way. If you just want to get to endgame, then go do the roulette and spam the highest dungeon or do deep dungeon and run fate/hunt while queueing or do MSQ if you have it. You can get to max level in a day. Don't complain about the method since you're not time gated at all from leveling.

The concern isn't the absolute time spent to reach the level cap. I know that it's possible to run dungeons after the roulette to continue leveling, but that requires the willingness to do nothing but leveling during my play session and to have enough free time to level from X to 80, if I'm going to do it in a day or two.

You've given quite a few suggestions on how I might better manage my time leveling, but I've actually taken the the points that you've brought up into consideration already. Given the way I work and given the way the game works, I end up having to do leveling roulettes daily if I want to get anywhere level-wise. I'd rather not keep up the daily schedule though since leveling isn't what makes me want to play. It would be even better if the game offered more interesting content like what's being asked for in this thread that I could focus on playing through instead of roulettes.

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

Deep Dungeons are a potentially good concept that aren't well executed in my opinion. They're not the same as difficult dungeons. I don't like that their difficulty ramps up slowly (and that you have to relevel, even if it's accelerated). Early on they are way too easy. Dungeons on the other hand are set to be a particular difficulty. Ideally this difficulty should be raised compared to now but players participating should be challenged right from their first run. The random status effects at the beginning of floors in Deep Dungeons do more harm than good in my opinion. I don't really want the way my character works to change constantly for no real reason, especially stuff like taking away your skills.

PotD and HoH do some stuff right, like randomized layouts and enemies. This keeps things from getting too stale and makes it so you can't just memorize your way past difficulty. If I were creating content from scratch though, I would definitely use regular dungeons as a base rather than deep dungeons. Set difficulty designed to challenge players, consistent gameplay, variable environment and enemies.

[Draken]

I would rather see branching dungeons, which lead to different rewards and or mechanics.

[ForteNightshade]

You know. We have what you're looking for. It's called deep dungeon.

You mean that content that doesn't remotely get hard until floor 80 out of 100? BA is probably the closest they've ever come to "harder" dungeons. And wouldn't you know it, that was widely praised alongside Ultimate as the best features that came out of Stormblood.

That isn't to say Deep Dungeon is bad. I actually rather enjoy it. But HoH suffered from the same issue dungeons have for years now: repetition. Virtually nothing changed or was innovated on.

[monk-dps]

You mean that content that doesn't remotely get hard until floor 80 out of 100? BA is probably the closest they've ever come to "harder" dungeons. And wouldn't you know it, that was widely praised alongside Ultimate as the best features that came out of Stormblood.

That isn't to say Deep Dungeon is bad. I actually rather enjoy it. But HoH suffered from the same issue dungeons have for years now: repetition. Virtually nothing changed or was innovated on.

Sadly you're going to get that no matter what tho. Gamers here have proven that most of the things asked for in practice they do not want. Noone actually wants random stuff in dungeons, or harder content cause when we did get it people all over the forums cried for nerfs. I will never forget Rath. That alone had people crying when it gave people what they asked for. As for a defense for deep dungeon. Solo it. The fact that VERY few people have proves people dont actually want this stuff. It literally has everything people claim to want. If more people actually did this instead of cry for nerfs when a boss yawns bigger -mist dragon- I think we would have harder dungeons. Until then..... the 2k page thread gets bigger and people stay bad.

[PyurBlue]

Sadly you're going to get that no matter what tho. Gamers here have proven that most of the things asked for in practice they do not want.

This is the wrong way to look at it. What actually happened was that many were happy, but others were not. Those who weren't were vocal, perhaps because they were the majority. The fix is simple, let them avoid the duty. This is why Savage works. It doesn't exist in roulettes, it's up to the player to take part.

Noone actually wants random stuff in dungeons, or harder content cause when we did get it people all over the forums cried for nerfs.

Constant threads like this show the opposite. There is a clear demand for harder content. It just needs to be added in a way that doesn't interfere with players who are looking for a more casual experience.

I will never forget Rath. That alone had people crying when it gave people what they asked for.

The trial also received praise for those very same things.

As for a defense for deep dungeon. Solo it.

This does help with the challenge aspect, although your ability to solo will vary drastically based on what class you play (or can play). It also means you're not playing in a group setting, which is one of the appeals of a MMO.

The fact that VERY few people have proves people dont actually want this stuff.

Or that there are issues with it, like excluding cooperative play and limiting class viability.

It literally has everything people claim to want. If more people actually did this instead of cry for nerfs when a boss yawns bigger -mist dragon- I think we would have harder dungeons. Until then..... the 2k page thread gets bigger and people stay bad.

If deep dungeons were the answer, this thread wouldn't exist. You're oversimplifying things way too much, maybe because the type of content being asked for doesn't interest you. That's completely fine, but if you think one piece of difficulty content is equivalent to any other and the details don't matter, you can't really tell me that what I want is already in the game. It's not.

[monk-dps]

This is the wrong way to look at it. What actually happened was that many were happy, but others were not. Those who weren't were vocal, perhaps because they were the majority. The fix is simple, let them avoid the duty. This is why Savage works. It doesn't exist in roulettes, it's up to the player to take part.


Constant threads like this show the opposite. There is a clear demand for harder content. It just needs to be added in a way that doesn't interfere with players who are looking for a more casual experience.


The trial also received praise for those very same things.


This does help with the challenge aspect, although your ability to solo will vary drastically based on what class you play (or can play). It also means you're not playing in a group setting, which is one of the appeals of a MMO.


Or that there are issues with it, like excluding cooperative play and limiting class viability.


If deep dungeons were the answer, this thread wouldn't exist. You're oversimplifying things way too much, maybe because the type of content being asked for doesn't interest you. That's completely fine, but if you think one piece of difficulty content is equivalent to any other and the details don't matter, you can't really tell me that what I want is already in the game. It's not.

Rath was shunned by an overly large bit of the playerbase for being - unfair- and other things when Rath was literally everything people apparently have been asking for. And yet hardly anyone did it and those that did it was like pulling teeth. Hell more people do it now siply because they can unsync it. Making the point of it pointless. And while you may want this stuff, the fact we have a very easy mode in the easiest part of the game - cause apparently people couldn't beat THOSE and yes... complained about it here - proves my point. Maybe I am oversimplifying it.. but I don't see why I shouldn't. Time and time again people ask for things to be harder and when SE DOES give us something the overall playerbase cries and complains until it's nerf. Have SE gotten better about not doing this .. yes. but the damage is already done. Hell asking for more dungeons when we only get 1 dungeon per patch now is funny.. they aren't making more.. they are making less.


What should be being asked isn't harder dungeons... but fixes and systems to make the over all playerbase BETTER so we can get harder content in the mainline of the game. Because as long as the playerbase sucks it'll never be a gain to make things harder. Ultimate doesn't count cause that is using old assets and if they had to make new ones it wouldn't be here. The reaosn we have it is because it's not extra work. - Even tho even THAT was limited once upon a time. go firgure....-

[Nestama]

I just can't see challenging dungeons happening (again) any time soon. SE would have to redo (buff) older dungeons so that future dungeons can be challenging from the get go. Otherwise, like I said before, we just get Pharos Sirius 2.1 situation again.

If it's too hard and there are easier options available, then people will leave ASAP, or not use Roulette at all and just queue for the fastest clears (Brayflox HM style).

[linay]

The concern isn't the absolute time spent to reach the level cap. I know that it's possible to run dungeons after the roulette to continue leveling, but that requires the willingness to do nothing but leveling during my play session and to have enough free time to level from X to 80, if I'm going to do it in a day or two.

You've given quite a few suggestions on how I might better manage my time leveling, but I've actually taken the the points that you've brought up into consideration already. Given the way I work and given the way the game works, I end up having to do leveling roulettes daily if I want to get anywhere level-wise. I'd rather not keep up the daily schedule though since leveling isn't what makes me want to play. It would be even better if the game offered more interesting content like what's being asked for in this thread that I could focus on playing through instead of roulettes.

I kind of get the feeling that what's been asked for in this thread is more suited for end game content than leveling. Regardless, it is your choice to make whether to prioritize leveling or something else. I think they've made leveling easy and fast enough for most people, though obviously they can't please everyone. I also think that what's been asked in this thread (even if it's for leveling content) might cause more problem for more people than it might "solve" for others.