The Reason Zenos.

[MoofiaBossVal]

ask any military general if retreat counts as a defeat, and that general will tell you, "EFF YEAH IT DOES!" Battles wins and losses are actually tracked, and I would say the majority of the ones combatants have in their win column is a result of a retreat. Zenos lost in Ala Mhigo.

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

[Gemina]

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

[Kallera]

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

[Gemina]

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

That's pretty much the definition of a wrecking ball character. It simply destroys in whichever direction it is swung. Zenos doing things like killing the emperor, stopping black rose, and plunging Garlemald into civil war might work in the favor of the alliance, but they are still extremely destructive deeds. You have to remember that there are good people in Garlemald, and they are suffering extensively right now.

The problems I see, I've already pointed out.