The Reason Zenos.

[monk-dps]

"No, he backed off during it. There was no clear sign of defeat there. Deciding to stop a battle and move elsewhere to continue fighting does not mean "you win". Only by game mechanics is that even a thing. If you're going by the game's logic of how we didn't get beaten earlier on, you can't say the same for the dungeon we ran either. Nidhogg's plot was "you killed my fam, I'ma make you suffer" and the entire plot of a previous FF already done. He practically was an edge lord the entire time, especially when he took over Estinien lol. GO FIGURE THE FAN GAME OF ALL FF'S WANTS TO MAKE SIMILAR IDEAS FROM OTHER FF'S???? HUH."

So by your logic he never beat us then. It was all game mechanics. Which is my point. And pointing out how nigghog is a bad villain doesn't change the fact zenos is even worse. I think even I pointed out nigghog isnt good, but he's already better than zenos. He at least left more of an impression then zenos I feel. Both are bad. Nigghog just isnt crashing other plots and is dead completely so he's better by default. Zenos could've left a better mark if he was written better, but his whole thing was under cooked. One he was killed off to soon I feel, his -wins- were badly designed. I think he should've killed you in that first fight. Then using the livestream you come back making the second fight mean more. But game mechanics ruined it I feel. It also doesnt help you see his level in both fights. Something they actually fixed in shadows with another villain.

[Gemina]

I think he should've killed you in that first fight. Then using the livestream you come back making the second fight mean more. But game mechanics ruined it I feel. It also doesnt help you see his level in both fights. Something they actually fixed in shadows with another villain.

I believe I've read this statement from you at least a couple of time, and I'm sorry, I'm having trouble making sense of it. If the WoL dies the story ends. At least from his/her perspective. If we were to come back via lifestream or whatever means, then it defeats whatever purpose there is to be gained by killing off the WoL, which isn't much.

It was shocking enough that the WoL was defeated so easily in the first fight. She/he most certainly didn't need to get killed to solidify Zenos as a good villain. Some of this stuff I see being tossed around like "we lost that fight because Zenos was level 70, of course we couldn't do anything to him." I find to be completely redundant, and bears no gravity on the situation whatsoever. If you were reading that fight out of a book, it wouldn't talk about level discrepancies. All you would know is Eorzea's resident baddass is their champion for a reason, and he/she couldn't do anything to stop Zenos. This was important to establish just how strong he is. The WoL lost that fight, badly; because it was scripted to be that way. Nothing more. Nothing less. There are still heavy role-playing elements to this game.

Also, ask any military general if retreat counts as a defeat, and that general will tell you, "EFF YEAH IT DOES!" Battles wins and losses are actually tracked, and I would say the majority of the ones combatants have in their win column is a result of a retreat. Zenos lost in Ala Mhigo.

[MoofiaBossVal]

ask any military general if retreat counts as a defeat, and that general will tell you, "EFF YEAH IT DOES!" Battles wins and losses are actually tracked, and I would say the majority of the ones combatants have in their win column is a result of a retreat. Zenos lost in Ala Mhigo.

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

[Gemina]

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

[Kallera]

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

[Gemina]

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

That's pretty much the definition of a wrecking ball character. It simply destroys in whichever direction it is swung. Zenos doing things like killing the emperor, stopping black rose, and plunging Garlemald into civil war might work in the favor of the alliance, but they are still extremely destructive deeds. You have to remember that there are good people in Garlemald, and they are suffering extensively right now.

The problems I see, I've already pointed out.

[monk-dps]

The Zeno thing.

The reason why I bring up the gameplay part of that is because one.. it's playable and two seeing his level is the reason we lose.. besides plot. It's there and you can see it, so it kindof can't be unseen. It's not like a book where all you do is read it, we played that section. It was badly written and was a waste of time. THey have gotten better at it, but Zenos still fails that. Besides that, both his last fights were lackluster at best. So not only does his story fail to give the player any kindof oof, the fights fail on that front too. Look at how Emet was designed and read thur out shadows. He works because he was understood and well written. I feel like Zenos wasn't.

We're told Zenos is powerful, we're told he's this unbeatable person... we don't feel any of that. The biggest reason why I don't let go of that reason is because we don't learn some trick to overcome Zenos, we don't grow in lore, heck there's not even a training section. The only difference is that oh look we're 70 now and he's a dungeon boss. Nothing in lore was gained from 63 to 70 other than levels. If he atleast did more to the player character in the first fight other than making us do the winded emote it'll be different. Death doesn't have to mean gameover for us.. we're playing a video game. We could've gotten a cool solo dungeon of us fighting to come back to life and within that showing one of the reasons the WOL is the WOL. It'll gave us a thing to stand out from other people, and a reason for Zenos to take note. Well other then plot reasons anyway. But this is just my take.

[Gemina]

Snippy 1

Again, we lose because it is scripted to be that way. It wouldn't matter if we were level 70 as well; the devs would still find a way to script that fight so we lose. We could even be strong enough to get Zenos down to 0.1%, and then he will bust out some overpowered move, and we lose. They could also design an even level match so Zenos has a ridiculous amount of defense, basically mimicking what happens at the Reach where we can't scratch him, and we lose. I just don't follow why this even matters. You say the fight lacked oof, and I don't follow here either. The WoL was humiliated among the few who survived the onslaught. They are forced to redraw plans to liberate Ala Mhigo, and the Scions totally get the hell out of dodge, and flee the whole continent. Zenos almost orchestrated a no-hitter, but didn't follow through with a clutch kill.

After finally hitting 70 (if we want to use levels), we have three fights against Zenos we can actually lose via duty failure, so it is not scripted. Few will actually wipe to dungeon Zenos, but it is possible; Shinryu and Elidizenos. You're getting what you're asking for but your response is, "they're lackluster." So if there's no pleasing you, or if it extremely difficult to do so, then I dunno. There just seems to be a lot of bias on your part.

snippy 2

How are you not feeling it when you're previous BiS i270 shire gear that you destroyed Alexander with isn't even phasing him? Because he's 10 levels above you? No matter how you want to look at it, he is more powerful than you at this point, and your character getting to the point that they are able to contest with Zenos should be all that you need to know that your character has grown in experience, knowledge, abilities, and also power. It's how it's done in literally every RPG out there.

The lore is filled with clues to how the WoL is getting stronger during SB. The Kojin Blessing; acquiring your Yol mount, and the defeat of Omega is very much canon. If we want to use an ShB example that shows this growth, there is early ShB where the Fauth attempt to make you one of them, and are unaware that you cannot drown. While I also wish it would show our WoL being all awesome powerful in cutscenes, this among many things about your character require you to stretch your own imagination a bit. Besides, when NPCs show their abilities in cutscenes, they don't really display anything greater than what we're capable of with our own skillset. We have some crazy powerful abilities, can traverse between two worlds, and are canonically stated to be a match for Zenos (when not falling asleep in battle anyway).

You also get a display via the echo from Fordola of yourself on the battle field kicking arse using some crazy shizz, so there's that too.

[monk-dps]

D:

I don't feel it because none of the quest has you learning anything to become more powerful. Again you aren't learning any lost arts or new tricks. The only thing that is changing is gear that is gameplay based and your levels, and if we're not counting that then what difference is it when you first fight him to your last fight with him? Again this is baseing this on the plot and not your gameplay stuff being levels or gear. The blessing doesn't make you stronger or hit harder.. it just lets you stay underwater without the need for air. That doesn't play into anything against Zenos. The only other thing is you taking land from him which isn't powering you up either. That's why I never felt this weight Zenos is posed to have over me. Zenos as far as I know is just a level checker with a bit of plot. Maybe I'm missing something but as far as I remember he's only stronger cause of his level, not because of skill or lost arts or anything else. Again we learn nothing in lore to beat him. We just do it, that's why I count the levels as otherwise it makes no sense. :c

[Gemina]

I don't feel it because none of the quest has you learning anything to become more powerful. Again you aren't learning any lost arts or new tricks. The only thing that is changing is gear that is gameplay based and your levels, and if we're not counting that then what difference is it when you first fight him to your last fight with him? Again this is baseing this on the plot and not your gameplay stuff being levels or gear. The blessing doesn't make you stronger or hit harder.. it just lets you stay underwater without the need for air. That doesn't play into anything against Zenos. The only other thing is you taking land from him which isn't powering you up either. That's why I never felt this weight Zenos is posed to have over me. Zenos as far as I know is just a level checker with a bit of plot. Maybe I'm missing something but as far as I remember he's only stronger cause of his level, not because of skill or lost arts or anything else. Again we learn nothing in lore to beat him. We just do it, that's why I count the levels as otherwise it makes no sense. :c

By your logic, there is no difference in power from level 1 to 80. If you disagree, then I would apply that logic to levels 60-70. The game really shouldn't have to spell out for you how strong the WoL is becoming. That should be really obvious.