The Reason Zenos.

[Nezerius]

"Again"... I don't mean we fought him and we lost as in being knocked out. I mean we fight, to the death, and potentially hydaelyn's champion is erased for a period of time... possibly turned to ghost like a certain someone in ShB. I think we're just spoiled as the WoL and see no other plausible story writing because we assume we'll auto win... Which if this game gives us a happy ending, sure I guess? I personally find his personality and plans go beyond trivial pursuits and kind've welcome him killing us and everyone we know.

Maybe even cause the ending that a certain someone in ShB saw for us?

We fought him to the death in the Royal Menagerie. Also, how would "erased for a period of time" even work? Would NPCs be shocked at seeing you, claiming that they're seeing someone who is supposed to be dead? How exactly would the story progress, considering the player character is kind of the vessel through which people play this game? Would we go to some kind of Spirit World for an expansion/couple of patches before fighting our way back to the lands of the living?

Even if that'd happen, we'd likely still end up defeating Zenos afterwards, because I can't see SE going with a permanent bad ending. They couldn't even kill Y'shtola in Stormblood, there'd be a meltdown on the forums if they permanently killed off the WoL.

[Valic]

We fought him to the death in the Royal Menagerie. Also, how would "erased for a period of time" even work? Would NPCs be shocked at seeing you, claiming that they're seeing someone who is supposed to be dead? How exactly would the story progress, considering the player character is kind of the vessel through which people play this game? Would we go to some kind of Spirit World for an expansion/couple of patches before fighting our way back to the lands of the living?

Even if that'd happen, we'd likely still end up defeating Zenos afterwards, because I can't see SE going with a permanent bad ending. They couldn't even kill Y'shtola in Stormblood, there'd be a meltdown on the forums if they permanently killed off the WoL.

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of. And everything you mentioned and more could happen. As far as seeing a villai be defeated... you can argue that on any villain we've had in this whole game. Killing the WoL for what seems like permanently but ends up being temporary I find fascinating myself... But I digress. There's also something else to consider with knowing which characters they will kill. The character cannot have appeared in a previous optional questline, so we can count out a lot of the main protagonists... We're prolly never gonna lose thancred unless the end of Eden does otherwise. Same with Urianger now. Correct me if I'm wrong(as the forums are wont to do already), but I believe Y'shtola was in the beginning of Alexander's introduction as well. Point here being, if we're going to go the route "well that's boring because we're just gonna defeat them"... Then every villain is boring. I could see them using Zenos to absorb powerful entities and strike us down and have to find our fragments to become whole again or some bizarre concept we can't fathom.

[KageTokage]

I kind of agree with the previous notions that Zenos is most likely just being used as a catalyst to turn Zodiark into an active threat despite the Rejoining not yet being complete.

How that ends up happening is anyone's guess, but I kind of hope he ends up becoming something beyond simply tempered and more an avatar of the primal so we can actually get his perspective on the events that have been transpiring.

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of.

I honestly never got that impression from any of his dialogue.

It sounded more like he was genuinely resigned to death and satisfied after having gotten his big battle with us and only realized he could cheat death like an Ascian after the fact then decided to make the most of it.

[Valic]

I kind of agree with the previous notions that Zenos is most likely just being used as a catalyst to turn Zodiark into an active threat despite the Rejoining not yet being complete.

How that ends up happening is anyone's guess, but I kind of hope he ends up becoming something beyond simply tempered and more an avatar of the primal so we can actually get his perspective on the events that have been transpiring.



I honestly never got that impression from any of his dialogue.

It sounded more like he was genuinely resigned to death and satisfied after having gotten his big battle with us and only realized he could cheat death like an Ascian after the fact then decided to make the most of it.

Considering how he talks about us as if we're pawns in a grand theater.... While I did fall for it, later down the line I see he's only just getting started and everything we'd done was merely testing grounds to him. That's what I gauged from it all though anyways.

Itll be ham fisted if he won this time. Like we already beat him. TWICE! The only reason he even won in the first place was cause we wadnt high enough in levels. They cant reuse the same trick. If he was going to win and have it mattered he should've done it the first time. Otherwise as it is now, itll be stupid him winning now.

Twice? I only recall once in the ending of SB tbh. Why would he expend all of his energy when there's the possibility for so much more? He's beaten us twice just as well, and that was before the "final fight" when we actually learned how to step up. He wasn't using his full power until possibly the Shinryu fight and even then he was just using a primal like a puppet.

Except he wasn't just "testing out". The fight at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon proved that we could handle him at full power, so he fused with Shinryu thinking it'd give him the edge he needed to defeat us. Since we still manage to beat him up, he admits defeat, and then kills himself. His surprised reaction in the last cutscene of 4.3 indicates that his soul jumping to some random Resistance member wasn't something he planned.


So you pretty much agree with the point that you've been arguing against? He'll eventually lose against us.


So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

I like you think he used his full power. He didn't and never clarified he did. He fused with Shinryu, not to give him any edge... He never once admitted defeat to us either even when he "died". He literally asked us if we'd kill the primal or bind or etc so on. He did not NEED Shinryu, he wanted to test the true power of his might and the will of a god and go beyond that vs the godslayer. While he may not have planned to come back how he did, he did and he's better for it. We defeat him though as the primal he was, not truly him as himself by ourselves. We even were shown just how damned hard it was at the end of Ghymlet Dark but that was under control of another character even.... And even then when given the chance for Zenos to go against ElidiZenos, Eldidibus yeeted out cuz he knew he'd lose. Especially because Zenos is starting to understand just how powerful he CAN be, beyond his already godly power. He's also more skilled than Elidibus imo, not just using brute strength magic but actually smart when it comes to destroying someone or getting what he wants. He's vindictive if that wasn't already obvious with the death of his father and claiming his body back after taking several bodies prior.

As far as Grynewaht goes... Someone already mentioned he was more of comedy relief than anything. He's a bit of a different story, he isn't strong, or willed to get stronger. He doesn't have any true pride and he thinks more weapons and machines can fell a hero. Grynewaht is a very basic level villain, he wants a better job placement and the only way to do it is through X. He doesn't complete X, he fails, he fails, and fails again, but he doesn't learn anything from it or go forward coming back any stronger or better for it. If anything, it only became "dark" once we saw him at the end of that dungeon and he gave up all of his humanity to become a mutant. Zenos isn't exactly... that base or stupid. He doesn't have much humanity to begin with, he's a sociopath to a degree and wants for a higher feeling than such base motives as country and rewards... material practices and promotions. What does any of that mean when one opens their eyes to the boarders of existence? The stars themselves, life, creation, all of it. Grynewaht is a moron, always was, and died being one through sheer dumbfounded bloodlust, revenge, and pettiness. Zenos isn't just bent on us for revenge sake or wanting to kill because he needs to to ascend for someone else or do something to accomplish it. It's the fight itself that promotes his purpose and thought. He WANTS to fight us with both of us at our most powerful. He WANTS to see the outcome of this given his newfound knowledge and ability. There's no requirement or need to, it's all as simple as becoming the godliest figure you possibly can, beyond any mortal coil and fight the universe's most powerful champion and prove the testament of what we are.

In the end... not every ending has to be this great empathetic tragedy like we get with Emet Selch or the warriors of darkness. They're nice, but they don't make "true" evil villains. The reason we like Emet is rather for the amount of difference we have between one another that paints him as a villain. In the end, he isn't the "I feel like killing because muahahaha". He never was, he was a hero to his people and wanted to stay that, he failed and the goal he had in mind to us comes across as evil. He's as much a villain as is a ghost trapped in your house that doesn't wanna be there. He's not groaning and moaning necessarily because he wants to, but because he had no choice to. Same case with Emet, he carried on the legacies of Ascians and the original star that was prior to the sundering. Putting at stake everything, even lives if he had to in order to bring back life and restore everything he loved. We're even given the same question from Alphinaud... Would we do the same? It'd make us a villain too if we did, but we wouldn't be the type to just do malicious things for our own self satisfaction or gain... (aka, kill cuz HECK YEH KILLING). I appreciate Emet Selch and well written "villains" but imo, this game needs to end with a true evil villain. Not just someone we empathize with and regret having to fight... Someone who is genuinely the bad guy through and through without a doubt and without us, everyone is doomed before them. I don't mean doomed for some greater purpose of sacrifice or doomed to slavery for another country or doomed to become another entity... I mean genuine life/reality extinction level.

[Nezerius]

I like you think he used his full power. He didn't and never clarified he did. He fused with Shinryu, not to give him any edge... He never once admitted defeat to us either even when he "died". He literally asked us if we'd kill the primal or bind or etc so on. He did not NEED Shinryu, he wanted to test the true power of his might and the will of a god and go beyond that vs the godslayer. While he may not have planned to come back how he did, he did and he's better for it. We defeat him though as the primal he was, not truly him as himself by ourselves.

His first line of text, after the Shinryu fight, literally states that "The hunter has indeed become the hunted." before sayings his farewell to "My first friend. My enemy"
He died. He didn't have a plan on souljumping to a different corpse. He straight out killed himself because his own power combined with Shinryu wasn't enough to defeat his target. The fact that you keep using "died", and seem convinced that killing himself was all part of some kind of master plan just shows how much you seem to have forgotten about the Stormblood MSQ. I'd suggest rewatching the cutscenes again.

Oh, and his question on if we were to kill or bind the primal was Zenos asking about the WoL's knowledge about the Echo.

We even were shown just how damned hard it was at the end of Ghymlet Dark but that was under control of another character even.... And even then when given the chance for Zenos to go against ElidiZenos, Eldidibus yeeted out cuz he knew he'd lose. Especially because Zenos is starting to understand just how powerful he CAN be, beyond his already godly power. He's also more skilled than Elidibus imo, not just using brute strength magic but actually smart when it comes to destroying someone or getting what he wants. He's vindictive if that wasn't already obvious with the death of his father and claiming his body back after taking several bodies prior.

We don't know why exactly Elidibus gave up Zenos' body as quickly as he did. So anything regarding that is pure speculation.

In the end... not every ending has to be this great empathetic tragedy like we get with Emet Selch or the warriors of darkness. They're nice, but they don't make "true" evil villains.

And how exactly does this change the fact that we'd still end up beating Zenos in the end?

Y'know, the thing you were arguing against? The fact that the only outcome would be him losing against us? Or do you still believe that Zenos is going to permanently defeat us?

[Nezerius]

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of.

Except he wasn't just "testing out". The fight at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon proved that we could handle him at full power, so he fused with Shinryu thinking it'd give him the edge he needed to defeat us. Since we still manage to beat him up, he admits defeat, and then kills himself. His surprised reaction in the last cutscene of 4.3 indicates that his soul jumping to some random Resistance member wasn't something he planned.

And everything you mentioned and more could happen. As far as seeing a villai be defeated... you can argue that on any villain we've had in this whole game. Killing the WoL for what seems like permanently but ends up being temporary I find fascinating myself... But I digress.

So you pretty much agree with the point that you've been arguing against? He'll eventually lose against us.

I enjoy Zenos because he's not another navel-gazing or self-aggrandizing narcissist with a god complex. He's a combat addict and knows it. Final Fantasy doesn't need another copy of Kekfa or Exdeath. Give us a villain that keeps coming at us even after we are far beyond them on a personal level. Show us a reason to pity them, not based on their misuse of power, but rather that they as a person never grew at all.

So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

[Gemina]

So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

Even though I've been supporting Zenos, I can understand how such an opinion can be formulated about him. Grynewaht got his arse handed to him by the WoL and became obsessed with killing him/her for redemption, and well... we know how that ended for him, and that sounds awfully similar to our Crown Prince here.

However, Grynewaht's fate is exactly the kind of thing you do with his character; making him ultra powerful at the cost of extracting his own free will (kind of like The Mountain from Game of Thrones), and basically turning him into a tool to be used by far more prominent antagonists. To say that Zenos is along the lines of this kind of one dimensional character I feel is a bit extreme. He most certainly can't get pushed around, and made to look a fool in front of his peers like Grynewaht. While I can admit that Zenos is not a vastly multidimensional character like Emet, I also can't submit to him being that bad, or that poorly written. Zenos does entertain me.

[Nezerius]

Even though I've been supporting Zenos, I can understand how such an opinion can be formulated about him. Grynewaht got his arse handed to him by the WoL and became obsessed with killing him/her for redemption, and well... we know how that ended for him, and that sounds awfully similar to our Crown Prince here.

However, Grynewaht's fate is exactly the kind of thing you do with his character; making him ultra powerful at the cost of extracting his own free will (kind of like The Mountain from Game of Thrones), and basically turning him into a tool to be used by far more prominent antagonists. To say that Zenos is along the lines of this kind of one dimensional character I feel is a bit extreme. He most certainly can't get pushed around, and made to look a fool in front of his peers like Grynewaht. While I can admit that Zenos is not a vastly multidimensional character like Emet, I also can't submit to him being that bad, or that poorly written. Zenos does entertain me.

Not saying that Zenos is currently as simple of a character as Grynewaht, since Grynewaht was mostly just comedy-relief-turned-video-game-reference (Doomguy in Doma Castle), but I also wouldn't be surprised if Zenos ends up getting baited into becoming a pawn of Zodiark, considering how the story is currently progressing. This is due to the fact that his only objective is to become stronger so he can fight the WoL. His character needs a lot more depth to not eventually turn into a character that just keeps on coming back after getting defeated.

[Gemina]

Not saying that Zenos is currently as simple of a character as Grynewaht, since Grynewaht was mostly just comedy-relief-turned-video-game-reference (Doomguy in Doma Castle), but I also wouldn't be surprised if Zenos ends up getting baited into becoming a pawn of Zodiark, considering how the story is currently progressing. This is due to the fact that his only objective is to become stronger so he can fight the WoL. His character needs a lot more depth to not eventually turn into a character that just keeps on coming back after getting defeated.

I've seen it happen in other fiction. Antagonist gets too strong, or there is some other reason the writer(s) get themselves boxed in a corner and the only way to take him out is to make him a puppet. Madara in Naruto quickly comes to mind. I really hope they don't do that with Zenos, but the quasi link between him and Zodiark seems all but certain.

From my perspective, it seems they are doing a kind of Neo/Agent Smith thing with the WoL and Zenos, where each are continuously getting more and more powerful. I think Zenos acknowledges this and is crazy super stoked about two mortals ascending to godhood, and then battling over the fate of an entire star. IOW, I think Zenos is quite similar to an Ascian in many ways including a desire to recreate the past. As a war monger though, he would seek to recreate the battle between Zodiark and Hydaelyn that split the star into shards in the first place.

That seems simple enough, and more than sufficient to wet my beak. I am just not sure how Zodiark will fit into that without eliminating his take on things, which I think many players want to know. That's kind of what really worries me about Zenos.

[MoofiaBossVal]

That seems simple enough, and more than sufficient to wet my beak. I am just not sure how Zodiark will fit into that without eliminating his take on things, which I think many players want to know. That's kind of what really worries me about Zenos.

So far, we already have two contenders for the role of the final antagonist of the story: Elidibus and Zenos, who are thematic counterparts to the WoL. Elidibus was once a colleague of the WoL, who eventually became a spiteful old man and leader of the big bad ensemble, who is now trying to kill his friend. Zenos is the WoL's rival, both pushing boundaries and performing feats thought to be impossible. Zodiark is... what? Some big bad doom summon/creature/demon thing of pure evil? I have no investment in Zodiark as a character, and I'm not sure how he could be brought in at the last moment and made into a character more worthy of the final antagonist role than Elidibus or Zenos.

I can see either Elidibus or Zenos becoming the avatar of Zodiark, but retaining their personalities. Elidibus is supposed to be the emissary of Zodiark, and Zenos wants Zodiark's power, so in the end either can work. So long as they don't become a brand new character upon taking Zodiark's power into their bodies.