More Options for Character Growth

[CamAlch]

Ok so my initial reaction to this post was kind of *facepalm* "For real?"

But I suppose I'll try and contribute in this discussion rather than get irriatated because this post seems a bit ridiculous to me.

First off, the job/class structure in this game is very different from WoW. In WoW you create your character, you choose a class and then you have the option to invest into a specific Skill Tree that defines your role. If you wake up tomorrow, log on and decide hey, I don't want to be a healer anymore, I want to be a tank! You're likely going to have to roll a new character because you don't have the option of changing classes altogether, and your options in the Skill Tree may not provide the changes you need to be a viable tank.

Well FFXIV and XI are not designed this way at all. Your "character" is not defined by which ever class you happen to be at that moment, you are free to change your class/job as often as you like to suit whatever play style you are looking for.

I know its easy to say that more customization would be nice and to suggest something like a Skill Tree, but the idea behind a Skill Tree is to provide a job/class with different options in terms of what role you would like to play. This system only really works with a system like WoW or SWTOR where you cannot change your job/class and doesn't really fit in with the Armory System.

I'll use SWTOR as an example as I have not played WoW. I played a Jedi Consular in SWTOR, and had the option (via Skill Trees) of being a Healer, DPS or Balanced. But that was it. If I decided I wanted to be a Trooper all of a sudden, I could not. I was limited to that class and the options in my Skill Tree. From this perspective, to me XIV seems to have way more options, I can be anything I want at anytime. And I'm sure there are ways they could mess with the current Armory system and Job systems to try and implement something similar to SWTOT/WoW, but I personally don't see how it could work with how this system is currently set up.

As for the augment that with XIV's system you are forced to play a specific way or you're considered a noob. That is every MMO. No amount of customization or options will changes the fact that MMO players will always figure out what is the most effective setup for each role and expect that people use that. There is literally no way to avoid this.

And Lastly, I personally think there is a ton of customization options. With Classes you can still cross class a lot of skills and can create a very diverse play style if you so choose. Jobs are less flexible and hold a more defined and specific role in battle, but that was intentional.

If you are truly unhappy with the game's system you might be out of luck, I don't really ever see things heading in the direction you are hoping they will. With the info they have given us, and the revisions they have made to the system, I personally feel that that system we have is great, but it seems as though you might be looking for something else entirely.

[Meleena]

I was going to make CamAlch's post but it's not needed, I agree 100% with him, Talent trees define roles of gameplay that are defined by class or jobchange in FFXIV.
That means that actually FFXIV provides more gameplay diversity for the player from what WoW does atm.

Ill quote his post cause he is right on this aspect:

Ok so my initial reaction to this post was kind of *facepalm* "For real?"

But I suppose I'll try and contribute in this discussion rather than get irriatated because this post seems a bit ridiculous to me.

First off, the job/class structure in this game is very different from WoW. In WoW you create your character, you choose a class and then you have the option to invest into a specific Skill Tree that defines your role. If you wake up tomorrow, log on and decide hey, I don't want to be a healer anymore, I want to be a tank! You're likely going to have to roll a new character because you don't have the option of changing classes altogether, and your options in the Skill Tree may not provide the changes you need to be a viable tank.

Well FFXIV and XI are not designed this way at all. Your "character" is not defined by which ever class you happen to be at that moment, you are free to change your class/job as often as you like to suit whatever play style you are looking for.

I know its easy to say that more customization would be nice and to suggest something like a Skill Tree, but the idea behind a Skill Tree is to provide a job/class with different options in terms of what role you would like to play. This system only really works with a system like WoW or SWTOR where you cannot change your job/class and doesn't really fit in with the Armory System.

I'll use SWTOR as an example as I have not played WoW. I played a Jedi Consular in SWTOR, and had the option (via Skill Trees) of being a Healer, DPS or Balanced. But that was it. If I decided I wanted to be a Trooper all of a sudden, I could not. I was limited to that class and the options in my Skill Tree. From this perspective, to me XIV seems to have way more options, I can be anything I want at anytime. And I'm sure there are ways they could mess with the current Armory system and Job systems to try and implement something similar to SWTOT/WoW, but I personally don't see how it could work with how this system is currently set up.

As for the augment that with XIV's system you are forced to play a specific way or you're considered a noob. That is every MMO. No amount of customization or options will changes the fact that MMO players will always figure out what is the most effective setup for each role and expect that people use that. There is literally no way to avoid this.

And Lastly, I personally think there is a ton of customization options. With Classes you can still cross class a lot of skills and can create a very diverse play style if you so choose. Jobs are less flexible and hold a more defined and specific role in battle, but that was intentional.

If you are truly unhappy with the game's system you might be out of luck, I don't really ever see things heading in the direction you are hoping they will. With the info they have given us, and the revisions they have made to the system, I personally feel that that system we have is great, but it seems as though you might be looking for something else entirely.

[Fiosha_Maureiba]

Ok so my initial reaction to this post was kind of *facepalm* "For real?"

But I suppose I'll try and contribute in this discussion rather than get irriatated because this post seems a bit ridiculous to me.

First off, the job/class structure in this game is very different from WoW. In WoW you create your character, you choose a class and then you have the option to invest into a specific Skill Tree that defines your role. If you wake up tomorrow, log on and decide hey, I don't want to be a healer anymore, I want to be a tank! You're likely going to have to roll a new character because you don't have the option of changing classes altogether, and your options in the Skill Tree may not provide the changes you need to be a viable tank.

Well FFXIV and XI are not designed this way at all. Your "character" is not defined by which ever class you happen to be at that moment, you are free to change your class/job as often as you like to suit whatever play style you are looking for.

I know its easy to say that more customization would be nice and to suggest something like a Skill Tree, but the idea behind a Skill Tree is to provide a job/class with different options in terms of what role you would like to play. This system only really works with a system like WoW or SWTOR where you cannot change your job/class and doesn't really fit in with the Armory System.

I'll use SWTOR as an example as I have not played WoW. I played a Jedi Consular in SWTOR, and had the option (via Skill Trees) of being a Healer, DPS or Balanced. But that was it. If I decided I wanted to be a Trooper all of a sudden, I could not. I was limited to that class and the options in my Skill Tree. From this perspective, to me XIV seems to have way more options, I can be anything I want at anytime. And I'm sure there are ways they could mess with the current Armory system and Job systems to try and implement something similar to SWTOT/WoW, but I personally don't see how it could work with how this system is currently set up.

As for the augment that with XIV's system you are forced to play a specific way or you're considered a noob. That is every MMO. No amount of customization or options will changes the fact that MMO players will always figure out what is the most effective setup for each role and expect that people use that. There is literally no way to avoid this.

And Lastly, I personally think there is a ton of customization options. With Classes you can still cross class a lot of skills and can create a very diverse play style if you so choose. Jobs are less flexible and hold a more defined and specific role in battle, but that was intentional.

If you are truly unhappy with the game's system you might be out of luck, I don't really ever see things heading in the direction you are hoping they will. With the info they have given us, and the revisions they have made to the system, I personally feel that that system we have is great, but it seems as though you might be looking for something else entirely.

The ways I kind of sees FFXIV is that you can switch to your ALT character with minimal hassle. You have access to any of the ALTs you invested in such as the tank, the attacker, the healer, or the buffer without having to leave the party, re-travel to the location, or progress through the dungeon as a different character.

And then going back to someone earlier that was speaking of skill separating the players apart being the level of customization. I think of individual player skill and team synergy outside of character customization.

Using Street Fighter as an example. Ryu and Ken used to play exactly identical. You chose your character model (Ryu or Ken) and only skill separated you. As additional Shotokan fighters arrived, you had variations within the fighting style. With Ryu, Ken, Evil Ryu, Akuma, and well... maybe even Sean, Sakura, and Dan (ha!). You have an extra layer of customization in a sense of how you wanted to use the Shotokan style. And skill level still represents how well you can utilize and enforce your tools to any given situation.

I likes what Delmonty and Coglin have mentioned in regards to the merit system. Some extra layer of alternate advancement that goes on top. Should materia branch out to cover traits that we can add on (i.e. reduced cooldown of ability X, increase in ability effectiveness, reduced cost of ability, added effect to ability, etc.) then that would also be the goods.

[Onidemon]

Ok so my initial reaction to this post was kind of *facepalm* "For real?"

But I suppose I'll try and contribute in this discussion rather than get irriatated because this post seems a bit ridiculous to me.

First off, the job/class structure in this game is very different from WoW. In WoW you create your character, you choose a class and then you have the option to invest into a specific Skill Tree that defines your role. If you wake up tomorrow, log on and decide hey, I don't want to be a healer anymore, I want to be a tank! You're likely going to have to roll a new character because you don't have the option of changing classes altogether, and your options in the Skill Tree may not provide the changes you need to be a viable tank.

Well FFXIV and XI are not designed this way at all. Your "character" is not defined by which ever class you happen to be at that moment, you are free to change your class/job as often as you like to suit whatever play style you are looking for.

I know its easy to say that more customization would be nice and to suggest something like a Skill Tree, but the idea behind a Skill Tree is to provide a job/class with different options in terms of what role you would like to play. This system only really works with a system like WoW or SWTOR where you cannot change your job/class and doesn't really fit in with the Armory System.

I'll use SWTOR as an example as I have not played WoW. I played a Jedi Consular in SWTOR, and had the option (via Skill Trees) of being a Healer, DPS or Balanced. But that was it. If I decided I wanted to be a Trooper all of a sudden, I could not. I was limited to that class and the options in my Skill Tree. From this perspective, to me XIV seems to have way more options, I can be anything I want at anytime. And I'm sure there are ways they could mess with the current Armory system and Job systems to try and implement something similar to SWTOT/WoW, but I personally don't see how it could work with how this system is currently set up.

As for the augment that with XIV's system you are forced to play a specific way or you're considered a noob. That is every MMO. No amount of customization or options will changes the fact that MMO players will always figure out what is the most effective setup for each role and expect that people use that. There is literally no way to avoid this.

And Lastly, I personally think there is a ton of customization options. With Classes you can still cross class a lot of skills and can create a very diverse play style if you so choose. Jobs are less flexible and hold a more defined and specific role in battle, but that was intentional.

If you are truly unhappy with the game's system you might be out of luck, I don't really ever see things heading in the direction you are hoping they will. With the info they have given us, and the revisions they have made to the system, I personally feel that that system we have is great, but it seems as though you might be looking for something else entirely.

I only mentioned WOW as an example as everyone is familiar with it but by no means i was suggesting we use the same system. I would much rather S-E make a system unique to FFXIV. Also i'd like to correct you on something. In WOW you got something called Dual spec. You can make 2 different trees and then switch between them to change your role. You can also go see your trainer and unlearn all your points and reallocate them. So no, you don't need to change classes or re-roll a character. That's the beauty of it, you can play the class you like and have the option of multiple roles to chose from.

[CamAlch]

I only mentioned WOW as an example as everyone is familiar with it but by no means i was suggesting we use the same system. I would much rather S-E make a system unique to FFXIV. Also i'd like to correct you on something. In WOW you got something called Dual spec. You can make 2 different trees and then switch between them to change your role. You can also go see your trainer and unlearn all your points and reallocate them. So no, you don't need to change classes or re-roll a character. That's the beauty of it, you can play the class you like and have the option of multiple roles to chose from.

You missed my point entirely on that note. I know you can Dual Spec to change roles more easily and you can re-allocate points, but that changes nothing about the point I was making. Even with those things you are still limited to the roles that your talent tree provides. There is no one class that can fill every role in the game within its talent tree. Which means that if you want to play every role you will have to create alts. FFXIV does not require you to do this, as you can change job/classes as often as you'd like on the same character.

I fail to see how boosting stats changes a class's role..... Unless stats open up new abilities then i don't see how it can make you do anything different.

Well I know you trying to leave out stats, gear and materia from the original argument you were making, and I respect that but since they are closely related to the OP topic and it continues to be brought up I'll throw in my two cents.

You can have two players that are playing the same job/class yet both are filling very different roles. Both may have identical skill sets, but the way the choose to use them in correlation with their gear and stat allocation choices gives them yet another opportunity to play that job/class differently from others.

Conjurer is a great example. It has been dubbed the "Healer Class." And for good reason, as it has the best equipped skill set to excel as a Healer, however that does not mean that it cannot play as an effective DD. Making gear, materia and stat allocation choices that make you more proficient as a DD, means you have the option.

And then if you factor in cross class abilities as well, you have a ton of options to customize your role you wish to play and how you play it. That is the beauty of the Armory system, and that is FFXIV's attempt at what you are asking for.