Pipe Dreams: Chemist

[Duelle]

As for the idea of Chemist proposed here, I think a primary complaint from the amount of resources required just for basic healing.
Basic Potion (Heal 1) **Consumes 15% of “MP”**
Airborne Medicine (AoE Heal, Regen) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Advanced Potion (Heal 2) **Consumes 25% of “MP”**
Healing Ampoule (AoE Heal) **Consumes 35% of “MP”**
Phoenix Pinion (Revive) **Consumes 45% of “MP”**

With the current system, casting GCD heals 2-3 times is as punishing as reviving an ally, casting many damage spells has no impact on your resources, excluding Poisoned Syringe. This is a job that could easily maintain DPS through a raid, but when I think of situations like E4S’ Voice of the Land, Tumult, Voice of the Land, Earthen Fury combo, I don’t think it could keep up.

Thanks for the input. I could reduce the cost of stuff across the board or increase energy regen rate to be higher than 4 energy/second. Balancing resources that are spent quickly and regen quickly is admittedly tricky, so I'm sure there's gonna be some more revisions to that system.

As for healing output, I figured Chemical Residue (80 cure potency for 21s) being stackable might help. One scenario that comes to mind is stockpile Primers => Airborne Medicine => Primed Potion => Primed Potion => Megalixir => Propagation => 8 stacks of Chemical Residue (640 cure potency per second XD). On that topic, I'm planning to cap Chemical Residue to 4/5 stacks (total of 320/400 cure potency per second for 21 seconds) and/or modify Propagation so that it doubles the value healed but reduces the duration of the buff by 40/50%. I guess even with these values, the job might need a bit of burst healing (I lack a frame of reference here since I've never done E4S).

[Risvertasashi]

To a lesser extent, when information for*Heavensward*was buzzing about, Michael "Fernehalwes" Koji-Fox said that the expansion wouldn't have a new DPS class, but a healer one. Later in that same fan fest, he heavily alluded to a gun using class. Come the December fan fest, he showed that there was indeed a new DPS class: Machinists, and the healers he was talking about are Astrologians, an entirely new, completely unforeshadowed class. In a later Live Letter Koji admitted that when he made that statement, there really*were*plans for a gun-toting healer class based on the Chemist from*Final Fantasy Tactics. However, there were enough problems regarding mechanics during the preliminary phase of development that they scrapped the idea and made the Machinist and Astrologian instead.

Hmm, well that's interesting, but the way that reads, it sounds like there's more of a connection to machinist and chemist than to astro. There's no hint that AST took any design elements from the would-be chemist, just that it's what they went to when they "scrapped the idea" - that phrasing also suggests AST didn't take from Chemist.

[Eloah]

Hmm, well that's interesting, but the way that reads, it sounds like there's more of a connection to machinist and chemist than to astro. There's no hint that AST took any design elements from the would-be chemist, just that it's what they went to when they "scrapped the idea" - that phrasing also suggests AST didn't take from Chemist.

That's just a summery of the events that transpired though. It's not an actual account of what happened. And like I mentioned, it was the Mix command that was giving them problems, and that's what eventually became the card system as we know it. We don't know how into the development the job was before the switch, but we do know it was the iconic Chemist ability that was giving them the issue. That's what AST takes away from the Chemist idea, before it turned into more of a, and still sorta is, a Time Mage-esque job. The only thing MCH got from the initial idea was the weapon, to our knowledge.

[Crushnight]

I like chemist as an idea but I don't think that chemist can fit into the current state of healers.

The devs have with their current design limited mix much more heavily than had they actually tried to release in HW.

Mix cannot give anything but dmg boost, anything else would let ast players point at chm and go why do they get varied effects with their gimmick and not us.

Any sort of healing tied to mix would have to be pretty potent to require multiple gcds ala mudra/ steps which would then lower basic heals to compensate. Yet this would then cause issues ala 5.0 ast where it is too far behind it's competition, which would then be buffed up making the more potent heals redundant.(just think of lower skilled players or stuck with abysmal tanks you couldn't use the the mix gimmick).

Any straight dmg ala Dots nukes etc would again be potent while the numbers would be fine to balance the fact they get both a nuke+ dot and theor gimmick gives them access to more if skilled is going to be cause a lot of healers to jump on board fast because so many people want something more to do while playing a healer.

Chemist coming into the current state of healers would have a watered down mix and I would hate that to happen to it.

[Rongway]

Any sort of healing tied to mix would have to be pretty potent to require multiple gcds ala mudra/ steps which would then lower basic heals to compensate. Yet this would then cause issues ala 5.0 ast where it is too far behind it's competition, which would then be buffed up making the more potent heals redundant.(just think of lower skilled players or stuck with abysmal tanks you couldn't use the the mix gimmick).

Any straight dmg ala Dots nukes etc would again be potent while the numbers would be fine to balance the fact they get both a nuke+ dot and theor gimmick gives them access to more if skilled is going to be cause a lot of healers to jump on board fast because so many people want something more to do while playing a healer.

Mix with high potencies for healing or damage would be fine. The balance there is in the extended execution time, not in lowering the potencies of GCD actions. If a three step mix were to result in, e.g. a 1000 potency AoE heal with a 3.5s activation sequence on a 30s cooldown, this would not be significantly overpowered compared to the other healers. 3.5s is roughly 1.5 GCDs, during which any of the other healers could do roughly 1000 potency with an oGCD and one and a half AoE spells. If anything, 1000 potency might be slightly underpowered in comparison because the 3.5s activation excludes it from being used with the same level of flexibility that the other healers have with their oGCDs.

There isn't really any reason to decrease the potency of their GCD actions for this.

[Shurrikhan]

I like chemist as an idea but I don't think that chemist can fit into the current state of healers.

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?

Chemist coming into the current state of healers would have a watered down mix and I would hate that to happen to it.

Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

[Risvertasashi]

That's just a summery of the events that transpired though. It's not an actual account of what happened. And like I mentioned, it was the Mix command that was giving them problems, and that's what eventually became the card system as we know it. We don't know how into the development the job was before the switch, but we do know it was the iconic Chemist ability that was giving them the issue. That's what AST takes away from the Chemist idea, before it turned into more of a, and still sorta is, a Time Mage-esque job. The only thing MCH got from the initial idea was the weapon, to our knowledge.

Hmm. Well, it does make me think that - if they failed to prototype chemist once - geomancer or some other alternative might be more likely. Not because of overlap with AST, but just in its own right from having tried it.

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?


Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

The game's already spending a pretty significant portion of its lifecycle with no new content. And if you spend forever chasing the perfect incarnation/balance, you might never add anything new. Every argument against adding a new healer could be applied to adding a new tank, but we still got gunbreaker. And by all accounts, some people very much enjoy playing it.

I laud your patience, but for me, 6+ years a bit long. Not even Blizzard treats healers like that, and I wouldn't exactly call them the gold standard.

And, you know. There's not exactly any guarantee that SE won't mess up WHM and maybe another healer in 6.0, putting us right back where we started - and since SE doesn't do reworks until the next expac, we'd be stuck with that for two years before anything happened.

-

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

[Shurrikhan]

So, by the time 6.0 is here, it will have been 6 years between healer releases. That's assuming a healer *is* released in 6.0, which isn't a guarantee. 4 of those years will have seen SE going "but we want to balance the existing jobs before adding new ones." Do you really want to make that 8 years, with 6 being chasing balance? 10 and 8? Where do we stop?

Honestly, better just three flavors of healer than four sub-flavors of just one. If we get another of the same, it's going to be as if it was never added, at least to me.

But, let's be clear: I've not said that new healer jobs needed to be delayed indefinitely, only that if it came down to creating more of the same or nothing, I'd sooner take nothing and spare us the deepened precedent that all healers are just slight variations in flavor from each other. A new job is probably our best way to break that precedent, but wasting the 4th job on more of the same will make that task so much harder for the 5th. That's why I said the job's implementation shouldn't be held to the constraints of existing jobs so much as it should be looking to free the existing jobs from those constraints.

Put simply, I think they need to be more careful of what they designate "balance" if/when not also being mindful of what it takes to make a compelling experience in the first place. HW made the WHM and SCH feel a bit less distinct in capacity more more distinct in style; we lost nothing. SB had, for the most part, interesting enhancements, once polished (or just more of the same, really, in the case of WHM, which was still mostly fine). ShB finally made something unique for WHM (a functional Lily system), but also cost it in other areas, and largely gutted AST. It was one step forward, two steps right, three steps backwards, so to speak. That can't be our approach in the future. A fixation on balance cannot afford to sacrifice balanced fun as well. But so far it largely has, and (as of the latest round of buffs) the healer jobs haven't really gotten any more balanced despite it. I see no value in introducing a new healer per those constraints. A new healer should be designed specifically to pull the other 3 out of the rut, not deepen it further.

And lastly, to both you and Crushnight: Do you really think we'll get out of the rut by never testing new ideas/jobs? By this sort of attitude, we might as well go back to 2 healers and 2 tanks and never try any other concepts again.

...Reread what you've just quoted from me and you'd quickly see that's the exact opposite of what I've suggested.

[Crushnight]

Mix with high potencies for healing or damage would be fine. The balance there is in the extended execution time, not in lowering the potencies of GCD actions. If a three step mix were to result in, e.g. a 1000 potency AoE heal with a 3.5s activation sequence on a 30s cooldown, this would not be significantly overpowered compared to the other healers. 3.5s is roughly 1.5 GCDs, during which any of the other healers could do roughly 1000 potency with an oGCD and one and a half AoE spells. If anything, 1000 potency might be slightly underpowered in comparison because the 3.5s activation excludes it from being used with the same level of flexibility that the other healers have with their oGCDs.

There isn't really any reason to decrease the potency of their GCD actions for this.

Problem is that would make it redundant on top of if mix offered any tangible better dps boost outside the heal be it crit, DH, base etc it would have the same issue ast had and be memed that you only want x and you have ast current situation to look forward to where all you get is the one thing(even if that one thing is heals) making mix no longer mix

[Crushnight]

Sorry if this comes off as flippant, but... is that even a worthwhile goal, given how poorly received that state has been? Shouldn't we almost be doing the opposite, trying to find job ideas that could synergize with movement out of the current near-infamous rut we find ourselves in?


Same, which is why I'd be fine with delaying it, and perhaps even almost any and all new jobs, for increases in identity, diversity, and generally fun gameplay among the existing cast. But that benchmark only gets further and further out of reach when truncating every new idea to the current lowest denominator. Perhaps we should be talking a bit less about that and more about the changes, good or bad, it could compel or allow for the jobs surrounding it?

Unless we see a U-turn on how the devs view how healers should be any new idea will be forced into their current vision. Since this is how they intend healers to be, they can be wrong but they would have to acknowledge that they are which they haven't not regards to healers anyway.

Remember the state 5.0 ast and sch were they honestly thought it was perfectly fine same with 4.0 lily system. Then look at how healers have 'progressed' since HW, SB more heals added gauges 1 being entirely pointless until ShB and loss of dps tools, ShB even more heals more loss of dps tools but gauges have uses but most hated iteration of all 3 healers (most people never hated whm it was just under performing to its competition now I actually see people hate it due to the downtime issue plaguing all 3 healers).

With the devs mindset since midway through HW (time they probably thinking of job changes for SB) I cannot see chemist having its iconic mix not be incredibly watered down.

If Chemist was released for HW, sure I could've seen it happening.
If Chemist was released for SB, I could've seen that happening too.
If Chemist was released for ShB, before press release yep same as above,after press release nope.
Can I see Chemist released for 6.0, Nope. Not until the devs show a massive change in their viewpoint and design process.