Parsing? Drama? ToS? Solution!

[Angus-Beef]

Wow can we please talk about the topic and not how to treat others. There are plenty of other threads on ToS.

This is about conditions for entering the hardcore end game content raids and/or trials. Please can we talk about this I think the OP gave up on this already on this thread at least but my opinion this is a good topic and should bring some attention to the devs.

Qualifying for Savage, EX, and ultimate is great idea imo. Not just for the sake of keeping people out, but also keeping people in. Look I admit as some others have stated that this isn't for everybody. Some people like a more difficult challenge and should not be penalized for it. An instance qualification could render or at least give an idea to a player like me who wants to do the hardest content possible and gauge what I need to do to get better so I don't pug it up and create df drama and resentment.

AS far as the other stuff....No one can control other people only yourself and how you react..no more debate there...

Anyone else have a solution?

The devs should kindly reinforce what is and isn't casual friendly content and start adding more difficult content back into the game.

If the game itself is enforcing the need to self improve to progress, then people will naturally adjust to the ever growing difficulty and competency should naturally reassert itself amongst those who want to see all the content.

This is the most non invasive way to force it without out right gating people out of savage and EX. It's fair and realistic and something this game used to do very well until SB. When MMOs set the bar low it only allows people who don't try pass through with their hands held.

Edit: I'll even further Elaborate.

If Sastasha is the easiest dungeon in the game the lvl 80 dungeons of Shadow Bringers should be the hardest. The game should naturally be building off the difficulty from dungeon to dungeon and the beginning of each expansion should be reinforcing that difficulty from the last dungeon in the previous expansion in the first dungeon of the current expansion.

If you regularly normalize the difficulty one should expect from content through out the game people (NOT ALL) but most people will naturally improve. It creates a situation where your body naturally creates muscle memory over time and allows you to adjust. FF doesnt do that anymore. It normalizes the bare minimum and people skirt by without actually improving over time.

[Hyrist]

The devs should kindly reinforce what is and isn't casual friendly content and start adding more difficult content back into the game.

If the game itself is enforcing the need to self improve to progress, then people will naturally adjust to the ever growing difficulty and competency should naturally reassert itself amongst those who want to see all the content.

This is the most non invasive way to force it without out right gating people out of savage and EX. It's fair and realistic and something this game used to do very well until SB. When MMO set the bar low it only allows people who don't try pass through with their hands held.

I get your approach, but the problem you run into that, from the business perspective, is falloff. Even before the 'casualization' of the game, you have a very small percentage of people completeting harder content, so them adding more of it, that players won't enjoy, will cause friction.

This friction is what caused Normal Raids to exist.

Also, I'm confused as to how you are thinking to accomplish reinforcing the non-casual content. Anything on the level of Extreme Trials and above is already gated by requiring you to use Party Finder. A pop-up disclaimer is just going to go ignored with all the rest of the help text. And trying to tilt the game to be 'more difficult' means you're going to bleed people if you put it in there way.

So, let me suggest some groundwork barriers for the suggestions.

1. We have to recognize existing trends and elements in the game - so, while fights in the story defiantly had more mechanics, they did make the fights through the story overall more easy to get into thanks to Trust System.
2. We're on restriction on manpower, so to add something, we must take something that could be updated and/or added away. SE's current trend of already doing so has sort of dictated that rule to us.
3. We have to keep in mind the expected participation limits when adding this content. Are we expecting to sacrifice potentially 95% of the player base enjoying another piece of casual content for 5%? Is that a wise decision for a company that's already showing strains of development time and manpower to make?
4. What sort of reward system for this new content do we add in? We're already enticing more powerful gear rewards across the board when it comes to Ex and Savage content, how do we entice players to do this content if our existing system already covers the essentials through multiple means?

Angus, I'm not saying your ideas are wrong off the bat, but there's a lot to consider here when you make a broad statement to say "Make the game harder/make more hard content." We're no longer in an era where people will tolerate needless difficulty for its own sake. Make the game too unappealing to casuals and you'll loose them. And like it or not, even with the staggered subscriptions, they're holding up the game. SE needs to (and will) make those decisions carefully and I would like to make suggestions with the same considerations in mind.

Edit About Dungeon Diffiuclties:

Gating people on story won't work. It was attempted by putting story in raids and the backlash was catastrophic. We're already adding mechanics into each dungeon and building off of already existing concepts. (Stack Mechanics, unique mechanics, indicators for common actions to be done within the raiding scene. Even soft enrage mechanics in dungeons made a return with Amarot.) So, how further do we educate them on basics they've already been shown repeatedly? If you overtune the basic dungeon fights people will just use Trusts to bypass that, and they have to be passable by Trusts or that system they've created is useless. You'd have to individually tune each dungeon to correspond requirements for each role to increase the difficulty and that's a huge amount of manpower to tune something 4 different ways for each dungeon. Do we restrict it to non-trust dungeons?

No I think if we're going to encourage the building of skills more than we do already, we're going to have to come with a better intermediary than simply tuning the storyline harder. We're already getting more mechanics there, and people are pushing through.

Given this I am leaning more towards gating.

[Angus-Beef]

I get your approach, but the problem you run into that, from the business perspective, is falloff. Even before the 'casualization' of the game, you have a very small percentage of people completeting harder content, so them adding more of it, that players won't enjoy, will cause friction.
This friction is what caused Normal Raids to exist.

[~]

Angus, I'm not saying your ideas are wrong off the bat, but there's a lot to consider here when you make a broad statement to say "Make the game harder/make more hard content." We're no longer in an era where people will tolerate needless difficulty for its own sake. Make the game too unappealing to casuals and you'll loose them. And like it or not, even with the staggered subscriptions, they're holding up the game. SE needs to (and will) make those decisions carefully and I would like to make suggestions with the same considerations in mind.

Look at my edit, I'm not saying to give needless difficulty, I'm saying naturally enforce and reinforce it through out the game so that by the time you reach max lvl things a lot of people might find harder will be second nature. While yes I do know SE is limited on Man power(That in itself can be a whole thread) I feel it is possible for them to do that going forward into 6.0 over redoing how every dungeon works from 2.0 on. I'm not saying we should sacrifice 95% of the player base for the 5% who do savage and ultimate. But the fact that the game doesnt build upon its own difficulty in an intuitive way is the issue ShB as a whole is facing.

[Hyrist]

Look at my edit, I'm not saying to give needless difficulty, I'm saying naturally enforce and reinforce it through out the game so that by the time you reach max lvl things a lot of people might find harder will be second nature. While yes I do know SE is limited on Man power(That in itself can be a whole thread) I feel it is possible for them to do that going forward into 6.0 over redoing how every dungeon works from 2.0 on. I'm not saying we should sacrifice 95% of the player base for the 5% who do savage and ultimate. But the fact that the game doesnt build upon its own difficulty in an intuitive way is the issue ShB as a whole is facing.

I disagree with that. Again. Look at the number of mechanics introduced and reinforced in the existing dungeon content, and compare it to our previous content. Amarot far harder in comparison to Sastasha, and comes with a soft-enrage, a mechanic we haven't really touched on in quite a while. Tuning that more difficult isn't teaching so much as frustrating, and as I said before, DPS checks are usually the last problem

The real issue isn't the difficulty of the dungeons itself, but in the ability of someone to be carried through a dungeon. Personal skills are not tested when a group of 3 can usually clear. To make mechanics hard requiring all 4 to be on point would tilt those scales too far.

I think instead we need to focus on building the individual, rather than on Trust/Group content. I like the idea of leading into stronger and harder mechanics, and we used to have a system that, on the rudimentary level, was trying to teach that. One we might be able to purpose in 6.xx.

I'm referring to Guildhests - more specifically.

If we could make a line of more extreme-based (possibly solo-only) Guildhests, and put enticing rewards for entering, we can isolate and focus in on specific skillsets for each role that would enable them to learn and refine. We can even create a scaling reward system that encourages them improving their performance.

It'd be easy to tune those to scaling difficulty, and there we can even control what mechanics need to be most reinforced with each role. Wouldn't take much manpower for something so short and sweet, and it would both not be a gate, and not be over-pressuring the storyline. For validations sake, you could even tie a title/achievement to conquering each difficulty to see if someone's gone through their paces.

It might work.

[Angus-Beef]

I disagree with that. Again. Look at the number of mechanics introduced and reinforced in the existing dungeon content, and compare it to our previous content. Amarot far harder in comparison to Sastasha, and comes with a soft-enrage, a mechanic we haven't really touched on in quite a while. Tuning that more difficult isn't teaching so much as frustrating, and as I said before, DPS checks are usually the last problem

The real issue isn't the difficulty of the dungeons itself, but in the ability of someone to be carried through a dungeon. Personal skills are not tested when a group of 3 can usually clear. To make mechanics hard requiring all 4 to be on point would tilt those scales too far.

I think instead we need to focus on building the individual, rather than on Trust/Group content. I like the idea of leading into stronger and harder mechanics, and we used to have a system that, on the rudimentary level, was trying to teach that. One we might be able to purpose in 6.xx.

I'm referring to Guildhests - more specifically.

If we could make a line of more extreme-based (possibly solo-only) Guildhests, and put enticing rewards for entering, we can isolate and focus in on specific skillsets for each role that would enable them to learn and refine. We can even create a scaling reward system that encourages them improving their performance.

It'd be easy to tune those to scaling difficulty, and there we can even control what mechanics need to be most reinforced with each role. Wouldn't take much manpower for something so short and sweet, and it would both not be a gate, and not be over-pressuring the storyline. For validations sake, you could even tie a title/achievement to conquering each difficulty to see if someone's gone through their paces.

It might work.

I would love a system like that. But would SE make it Mandatory if they put something like that in?

[linay]

I think instead we need to focus on building the individual, rather than on Trust/Group content.

They created two easier modes for solo instanced duty in MSQ. There is a possibility that you and the devs are on opposite trajectories in terms of where you want this game to go in this case.

[Hyrist]

They created two easier modes for solo instanced duty in MSQ. There is a possibility that you and the devs are on opposite trajectories in terms of where you want this game to go in this case.

I noticed that, going through the Heavensward MSQ on replay mode.

But I'm more or less discussing from the intended goal of the thread, rather than simply taking a singular stance. My personal playstyle is flexible enough for me to be accepting of whatever changes are implemented - barring any tolerance of treating strangers poorly.

Ultimately, SE makes the decisions, we can only provide our feedback. After that point I advise everyone take a breath, cool off, and get back to the things they enjoy. Otherwise it's not worth it. Getting too involved with people too hot under the collar in gaming has ruined the game itself more than once in my time. So I'm happy to just let people do their thing and focus more on myself.

[Angus-Beef]

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Edit About Dungeon Diffiuclties:

Gating people on story won't work. It was attempted by putting story in raids and the backlash was catastrophic. We're already adding mechanics into each dungeon and building off of already existing concepts. (Stack Mechanics, unique mechanics, indicators for common actions to be done within the raiding scene. Even soft enrage mechanics in dungeons made a return with Amarot.) So, how further do we educate them on basics they've already been shown repeatedly? If you overtune the basic dungeon fights people will just use Trusts to bypass that, and they have to be passable by Trusts or that system they've created is useless. You'd have to individually tune each dungeon to correspond requirements for each role to increase the difficulty and that's a huge amount of manpower to tune something 4 different ways for each dungeon. Do we restrict it to non-trust dungeons?

No I think if we're going to encourage the building of skills more than we do already, we're going to have to come with a better intermediary than simply tuning the storyline harder. We're already getting more mechanics there, and people are pushing through.

Given this I am leaning more towards gating.

This is why I said do it going into 6.0, The trust system is optional and should only offer a much more (tame?) experience for those who dont want to be challenged, that'll keep both ends happy. If they can create Baldesion Arsenal, and Ultimate 2 forms of their most successful content, then I imagine they can slightly scale up dungeon difficulty over time.

[Hyrist]

This is why I said do it going into 6.0, The trust system is optional and should only offer a much more (tame?) experience for those who dont want to be challenged, that'll keep both ends happy. If they can create Baldesion Arsenal, and Ultimate 2 forms of their most successful content, then I imagine they can slightly scale up dungeon difficulty over time.

I'm not opposed to them continuing to use Dungeons as a teaching method, but there's a crux there that prevents it from being useful on the level we'd need them to be. See my above answer for the reasoning.

Again 'difficulty' is relative and we want individual people improving their skills in particular. Generalized group skills are already present and continually developing. I don't think we'll see them buck that trend in the 6.0 dungeons. I just think you won't get your desired level of training from them and still maintain the necessary balance between accessibility and training.

That said, we can brainstorm on what sort of mechanics need more focus on. You'd have to admit some mechanics in this game are overused, but some of them might need even more enforcement. Do you have any ideas as to what mechanics we need to place emphasis on more in dungeons moving forward?

I would love a system like that. But would SE make it Mandatory if they put something like that in?

I don't think so. They could make it enticing enough if it say, dropped currency to improve gear, or other such desired rewards. As far as it needing to be mandatory - if you tie titles to levels of difficulty, you wouldn't need to. Players who were serious about making sure their prospective members knew their stuff could ask to see the respective title associated to what role and difficulty they feel was needed to join.

Sure, it might get some 'elitist' claims, but at least it keeps the recruitment methods more clear cut and honest in terms of expectations.

[Angus-Beef]

I'm not opposed to them continuing to use Dungeons as a teaching method, but there's a crux there that prevents it from being useful on the level we'd need them to be. See my above answer for the reasoning.

Again 'difficulty' is relative and we want individual people improving their skills in particular. Generalized group skills are already present and continually developing. I don't think we'll see them buck that trend in the 6.0 dungeons. I just think you won't get your desired level of training from them and still maintain the necessary balance between accessibility and training.

That said, we can brainstorm on what sort of mechanics need more focus on. You'd have to admit some mechanics in this game are overused, but some of them might need even more enforcement. Do you have any ideas as to what mechanics we need to place emphasis on more in dungeons moving forward?

I don't think so. They could make it enticing enough if it say, dropped currency to improve gear, or other such desired rewards. As far as it needing to be mandatory - if you tie titles to levels of difficulty, you wouldn't need to. Players who were serious about making sure their prospective members knew their stuff could ask to see the respective title associated to what role and difficulty they feel was needed to join.

Sure, it might get some 'elitist' claims, but at least it keeps the recruitment methods more clear cut and honest in terms of expectations.

I would say based on my most recent solo PF and DF runs, Stack mechanics, Boss Tells, and Dps Positioning.

Stacking, I honestly see more people dying to not stacking then anything else in most dungeons. I usually rescue or TBN/Heart of Stone them when I see people running away, its also something people seem to not pay any mine to in EX and Savage runs a lot lately.

Boss Tells, Know what a boss does and why, when and how you should react and how this can be a very varied mechanic type. This is something I see people struggle with Levi in Inundation and Titan in Sephulture. For those who may aspire to doing Savage this is something they'll need to know how to properly react to. I would love more Boss tell based mechanics within content outside Savage and EX.

DPS positioning is self explanatory, I just see a lot of dps getting cleaved then bitching at tank and healers about being dead.

Edit: I would even say add in Cosmetics that usually gets a lot of players as well