Parsing? Drama? ToS? Solution!

[linay]

I think instead we need to focus on building the individual, rather than on Trust/Group content.

They created two easier modes for solo instanced duty in MSQ. There is a possibility that you and the devs are on opposite trajectories in terms of where you want this game to go in this case.

[Angus-Beef]

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Edit About Dungeon Diffiuclties:

Gating people on story won't work. It was attempted by putting story in raids and the backlash was catastrophic. We're already adding mechanics into each dungeon and building off of already existing concepts. (Stack Mechanics, unique mechanics, indicators for common actions to be done within the raiding scene. Even soft enrage mechanics in dungeons made a return with Amarot.) So, how further do we educate them on basics they've already been shown repeatedly? If you overtune the basic dungeon fights people will just use Trusts to bypass that, and they have to be passable by Trusts or that system they've created is useless. You'd have to individually tune each dungeon to correspond requirements for each role to increase the difficulty and that's a huge amount of manpower to tune something 4 different ways for each dungeon. Do we restrict it to non-trust dungeons?

No I think if we're going to encourage the building of skills more than we do already, we're going to have to come with a better intermediary than simply tuning the storyline harder. We're already getting more mechanics there, and people are pushing through.

Given this I am leaning more towards gating.

This is why I said do it going into 6.0, The trust system is optional and should only offer a much more (tame?) experience for those who dont want to be challenged, that'll keep both ends happy. If they can create Baldesion Arsenal, and Ultimate 2 forms of their most successful content, then I imagine they can slightly scale up dungeon difficulty over time.

[Hyrist]

This is why I said do it going into 6.0, The trust system is optional and should only offer a much more (tame?) experience for those who dont want to be challenged, that'll keep both ends happy. If they can create Baldesion Arsenal, and Ultimate 2 forms of their most successful content, then I imagine they can slightly scale up dungeon difficulty over time.

I'm not opposed to them continuing to use Dungeons as a teaching method, but there's a crux there that prevents it from being useful on the level we'd need them to be. See my above answer for the reasoning.

Again 'difficulty' is relative and we want individual people improving their skills in particular. Generalized group skills are already present and continually developing. I don't think we'll see them buck that trend in the 6.0 dungeons. I just think you won't get your desired level of training from them and still maintain the necessary balance between accessibility and training.

That said, we can brainstorm on what sort of mechanics need more focus on. You'd have to admit some mechanics in this game are overused, but some of them might need even more enforcement. Do you have any ideas as to what mechanics we need to place emphasis on more in dungeons moving forward?

I would love a system like that. But would SE make it Mandatory if they put something like that in?

I don't think so. They could make it enticing enough if it say, dropped currency to improve gear, or other such desired rewards. As far as it needing to be mandatory - if you tie titles to levels of difficulty, you wouldn't need to. Players who were serious about making sure their prospective members knew their stuff could ask to see the respective title associated to what role and difficulty they feel was needed to join.

Sure, it might get some 'elitist' claims, but at least it keeps the recruitment methods more clear cut and honest in terms of expectations.

[Angus-Beef]

I'm not opposed to them continuing to use Dungeons as a teaching method, but there's a crux there that prevents it from being useful on the level we'd need them to be. See my above answer for the reasoning.

Again 'difficulty' is relative and we want individual people improving their skills in particular. Generalized group skills are already present and continually developing. I don't think we'll see them buck that trend in the 6.0 dungeons. I just think you won't get your desired level of training from them and still maintain the necessary balance between accessibility and training.

That said, we can brainstorm on what sort of mechanics need more focus on. You'd have to admit some mechanics in this game are overused, but some of them might need even more enforcement. Do you have any ideas as to what mechanics we need to place emphasis on more in dungeons moving forward?

I don't think so. They could make it enticing enough if it say, dropped currency to improve gear, or other such desired rewards. As far as it needing to be mandatory - if you tie titles to levels of difficulty, you wouldn't need to. Players who were serious about making sure their prospective members knew their stuff could ask to see the respective title associated to what role and difficulty they feel was needed to join.

Sure, it might get some 'elitist' claims, but at least it keeps the recruitment methods more clear cut and honest in terms of expectations.

I would say based on my most recent solo PF and DF runs, Stack mechanics, Boss Tells, and Dps Positioning.

Stacking, I honestly see more people dying to not stacking then anything else in most dungeons. I usually rescue or TBN/Heart of Stone them when I see people running away, its also something people seem to not pay any mine to in EX and Savage runs a lot lately.

Boss Tells, Know what a boss does and why, when and how you should react and how this can be a very varied mechanic type. This is something I see people struggle with Levi in Inundation and Titan in Sephulture. For those who may aspire to doing Savage this is something they'll need to know how to properly react to. I would love more Boss tell based mechanics within content outside Savage and EX.

DPS positioning is self explanatory, I just see a lot of dps getting cleaved then bitching at tank and healers about being dead.

Edit: I would even say add in Cosmetics that usually gets a lot of players as well

[Djinnrb]

I have a solution to the ever growing issue, and demand for "parsing" and in game issue of high level players preforming below low level standards.


Solution:

-Instanced striking dummies.

Stone Sky Sea is a good measure, but it does nothing to teach.

Instanced striking dummies, must be level synced, item level synced, must have the same feature that is provided in Deep dungeons (heaven on high, and palace of the dead) "items restricted."

These dummies instances, will remove all buffs, namely food, reset your skills, like any other instance, and then prevent you from using items while inside.

DPS - Must defeat the target in the time allotted
Tanks - Must defeat the target in time allotted while being attacked, utilizing proper defensive skills. If dead before killing the mob, skills were not utilized, within time alloted.
Healers, must keep a target healed, as well as damage the dummy within time alloted.


Finally, you cannot enter savage or extreme trials without completing a specified duty's striking dummy.

The only problem I see is that people can beat those dummies and still suck in the raid because they just arnt trying. The solution while unpopular is to just allow parsers and to straight up tell people that they arnt good enough to do certain content. There is no other way to fix and they need to stop babying people.

[Angus-Beef]

Why should someone using an innocuous word like 'fun' in a game that's predicated on being fun have to manage the knee-jerk reactions of elitists who assume that if you're a casual player in favour of having fun, then you must be a frivolous nitwit who can't be bothered mashing more than a couple of buttons/keys on their gamepad/keyboard (oops, it's probably not 'prudent' to admit to using a filthy casual controller either)?



So, if you're only doing "the rest of the game," it's because of your "inability to put together 2 braincells"? Classy. Ever consider that it might be because those people are using some portion of their braincells for things other than gaming? Oh wait, I think I can predict what your response might be:



Close?

It's funny, I raid with people who have families and are busy with work regularly, yet they're competent enough to actively raid and clear.

Edit: In fact its funny you assume all these things about where I stand but I simply say, if you dont want to put the effort forward dont involve yourself within EX and Savage runs. In the end if you can't put two brain cells together for the run you've joined then you're part of the problem, if you treat people like shit for needing to improve you're part of the problem. I dont care if people are casual, but pull your weight within this optional content. Dont get mad if people kick you for not doing so, dont act like people are being elitist. Just realize if people are kicking you and you can't clear, its a you problem no one else and people dont have to deal with it.

That being said I'll get back on Point. IS there a solution to people improving? Sadly even if we were to have guildhests be used as a means to teach Yoshi P said he doesnt want to deal with that system anymore, and any long term solution will have to be implemented in 6.X given that all of the prescheduled aspects of 5.X are essentially done and accounted for already.

Also who bombs on controller players in 2020? I know people who play on Keyboard and who are amazing, in vice versa, stop reaching and just admit people need to improve if they want to see the content they can't do.

[Barraind]

I raided with someone who had two kids she couldnt parent for the life of her and had to be removed because her damage was even worse than her non-stop yelling at her kids and eating vuln stacks.

And yet, nothing was ever her fault.

[EaMett]

In a game meant to be played over extended periods of time it's possible for everyone to get competent rotationally. Barring some high ping issues (and even then) it's also possible for everyone to become mechanically competent. The thing is some people just don't find it fun, that's all there is to it. It can be because of anxiety over performing well, lack of interest in higher content, etc..

The issues are generally twofold.

On the parser end, so long as SE keeps delivering content that requires optimization, people will need tools to gauge their performance. Thus parsers are almost a necessity for the portion of players gunning for that content whether directly or indirectly via fflogs. This is why SE bans the behavior not the parser.

On the player end, SE refusing to put them in game also leads people to attempt said content without qualifying skill. Either because they think it's irrelevant or don't know how well/poorly they perform. Needless to say this frustrates some.

Cue the endless parser threads in general forums.

The grey area is that you can difficultly justify helping others in the current climate. What are you going to say? mentioning your parser in an attempt to improve someone else's gameplay is risky business. I know I wouldn't even think about it, especially considering I've only ever been polite while helping others and the majority of time people tell me to outright f off. Would help if some system were put into place to help. I think SE should grade your DPS (death ratio, etc..) performance at the end of most content. A to F compared to what other players have done in the content. Top 15% > A, bottom 10% > F etc. This would be displayed only to the player and nobody else. People can seek help on their own schedule and they don't run the risk of being harassed by others

[Angus-Beef]

Do you understand how implication works? I already granted that players who want to tackle Ex and Savage content need to be up to snuff so that they're not jeopardizing clears/unnecessarily burdening those players who have put in the work to attain the requisite level of competence. I know that as a casual player who is not demanding to be carried through Savage/Ex that your statements pertaining to this issue specifically do not apply to myself or other casuals who are not making this demand. That much is obvious.

However, when you are saying that the people who can't do Savage have had the rest of the game "dumbed down" due to their inability to "put to braincells together" then you are, by way of implication (A = people who can't do Savage can't put two braincells together, B = I can't do Savage, therefore A = B) very much impugning my intelligence, and the intelligence of everyone else who can't do Savage. You may not have meant to make that implication—and I'll acknowledge that as fact if that is indeed the case—but you made it all the same.

OK I'll give the Casuals who complain about content a new name, nuggets.

[linay]

OK I'll give the Casuals who complain about content a new name, nuggets.

Sometimes, an accurate description is more useful for clarity than a name/label.