In Defence of DPS meters.

[Angus-Beef]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

See you can't even say that, do you realize how many people pug fights in a given day. Not having accurate information would turn a 10 min run into hitting enrage and playing the guessing game on who's not doing enough damage. And that will lead to waaay more toxic situations then just calling out one person

Asking someone to play optimally at endgame and they want to clear fights like Titan is not telling someone how to play, it's a Base line requirement.

As for people complaining, that's been happening since ARR, it's never gonna stop. As for FF being successful, what does that have to do with peoples performance, it can grow all it wants, it will only add a few dozen raiders into this game who want to improve while the rest flail blindly trying to figure out what's wrong.

[Paidhi]

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

[Angus-Beef]

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

Ok so Lets assume everyone here goes and joins an FC and finds a static, etc, and they no longer pug. How do you expect the people who wants to *have fun* to clear the content they wanna clear and not self improve?. Fights like Titan are unclearable if people have too many deaths atm, you won't make the dps check no matter how over geared you are, and if you're not dead but you're a BLM doing only 6k and your other DPS can't compensate because they're equally underperforming how do they clear, where is the fun in wiping for several pulls and not getting past phase 1 in hades?

At that point they're not even running savage or EX anymore, they can't see past phase 1 and every competent player is no longer pugging because as you said, they shouldn't play with theese people. You now have several issues to deal with not only as a community, but SE as a developer and Yoshi P as the lead of this game, people can't clear and they'll say the game is too hard, vs the real issue people needing to improve. Like it or not, simply telling people to *not play with others* will change nothing.

As per only *getting 300 extra dps* no in a lot of cases is very staggering how many pugs underperform at the baseline, people should be able to at least manage 10k flat and barely do that. If people learned they're rotations they can see up to 14-16k if not more with proper alignment and knowledge of the classes you have in any given run. The lack of this knowledge and people such as yourself refusing it is why from 5.0-5.1, the content has been fairly dumbed down, Yoshi P himself wanted to make Titania EX harder, and guess what he had to NOT do that for the sake of people not being able to actually perform.

In the end, I will repeat to drive this point home, If people in this community want to get rid of ACT so bad, Improve, Theres no Ifs, and, ors, buts, just Improve. If thats not for you, stay away from Save and EX, there plenty of other optional content for people to do that requires no competentcy.

[Angus-Beef]

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

[ForteNightshade]

Again, don't play with them if you don't want to feel obligated to compensate. Are they forcing you to play with them?. Are they forcing you to play worse than you like? Get into a hardcore FC and raid there if that's the only thing that makes you happy. It is really that simple. Understand that for many players what matters is a)to play decently well and b)have fun while doing it. Nothing else. They don't need a meter telling them they have to improve a particular rotation, or choose another job to get 300 an extra dps. And they are not telling you to "relax", so don't tell them to "improve".

This is quite the Strawman you're building. If you think people care about a meager 300 DPS, you clearly don't understand the issue. Playing decently is a Samurai pulling roughly 14,000 rDPS in full i470. Maybe a little less. No one will bat an eye seeing those numbers. If said Samurai can't even break 10,000. They're essentially doing tank damage, which isn't "playing decently" it's downright garbage. They are actively hindering the group as a whole because if everyone shared their mentality, you wouldn't be able to clear.

What makes me "happy" is clearing content efficiently. I couldn't care less if you're super optimized but if you're doing half the damage you should be, you have no business being in Savage. Fortunately, I don't have to play with these people as my magic abacus lets me decide if I should eject them from it or leave myself. What does suck is there are several people who want to improve yet have no idea how because the game offers no information. I've even meant players who were stunned their damage was so low. And quite thankful when I linked them guides.

Angus summarized it pretty well. If all the players who "played decently" kept to their own circles, you'd never clear anything.

[Shurrikhan]

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

This. It's far, far higher in XIV than in the majority of games that have ubiquitous parsing.

There's no point in telling a guy, "You know you're doing half the dps the other damage-dealers are doing, right?" when everyone has those same numbers. Where parsing is ubiquitous, the conversation efficiently skips that step. Instead, people switch to observation. We check to see if they seem merely distracted or to find out what's going wrong, or at worst just run a quick verbal check before whatever time we'd need full performance on and with time enough to correct the problems seen (e.g. your Fire Mage using Fire Blast on cooldown instead of only on Heating Up or whatever common knowledge issue others might be able to easily fix).

[Shurrikhan]

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

The sad truth is, suspicion tends to make people act far worse to each other than actually knowing, perhaps doubly so if there's a chance suspicion would fall on themselves and triply so when they, themselves, are worried they might be to blame.

[Angus-Beef]

This. It's far, far higher in XIV than in the majority of games that have ubiquitous parsing.

There's no point in telling a guy, "You know you're doing half the dps the other damage-dealers are doing, right?" when everyone has those same numbers. Where parsing is ubiquitous, the conversation efficiently skips that step. Instead, people switch to observation. We check to see if they seem merely distracted or to find out what's going wrong, or at worst just run a quick verbal check before whatever time we'd need full performance on and with time enough to correct the problems seen (e.g. your Fire Mage using Fire Blast on cooldown instead of only on Heating Up or whatever common knowledge issue others might be able to easily fix).

Thats just it in FF, yet when you purpose this to the majority it's met with disdain. If we can make it so people at LEAST see thats it's their own mistake then they'll be more willing to fix it.

[Paidhi]

Ok so Lets assume everyone here goes and joins an FC and finds a static, etc, and they no longer pug. How do you expect the people who wants to *have fun* to clear the content they wanna clear and not self improve?

Here is the problem, which is assuming that people will stop doing PUGs just because they want to clear the maximum amount of content. That's what some players will do, but many will not, because they value socialization and casual fun over pure game achievement.

[Paidhi]

Again, many players don't value the numbers more than the having fun with a player they enjoy playing with.