In Defence of DPS meters.

[Nyxn607]

Look it comes down to this. The developers have stayed firm with their stance on the dps meters. They will not put one into the game. If you want one, either take the risk of being banned (unlikely unless you bash someone with one) by using a third party program, or don't.

[Paidhi]

Thats a mischaracterisation, the thread got to here because we were saying dps meters would unmask the large amount of lazy players, i.e. clearly putting in minimum effort and don't listen to any advice given to them. You can be bad and still be trying by listening to advice and trying to implement it and thats fine, dps meters wouldnt change that.

This is precisely the kind of community dynamics that the lack of a dps meters helps to avoid which is very good in my opinion. Others are jobs balancing problems, BiS lists, etc. The developers are doing a very good job at avoiding that such issues/dynamics get into the community.

[FirstnameLastname]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

Yes, as clearly seen in literally any other MMO. Oh wait, players don't actually do that. FFXIV players are just too whiny to handle the truth.

[Angus-Beef]

It seems from all the other MMOs I've played FF is the only current major MMO on the market where a fair amount of the player base seems to struggle with competency. From WoW, to ESO, to GW2, people seem to be able to take the 5 min needed to learn their class and read the tool tips more often then not.

That being said Third party or not, people will always be idiots when it comes down to these things. Removing the use of ACT outright will change nothing, Adding one will change nothing. As hard or as messed up as it sounds, people that seem to always be on the bad end of parsing situation should learn to play their job and the game as everyone else who currently plays and clears endgame has if they want to participate in end game anything really.

lets say we give Timmy an ingame SE sanctioned dps meter, that doesnt stop Timmy from not knowing his rotation and not wanting to change that and self improve. Timmy doesn't care about that and thinks hes fine, the people in the group my be willing to tolerate him if hes doing okish, and if hes not he'll be removed. The same if said people are using third party parsers. The issue is not application based its community based.

When you look at WoW, we have Recount, Details, Skada Damage Meter, all filled with all the essential things needed for a raider to see whos doing what needs to be done for a potential clear. When someone wants to bash or mistreat players they're reported, they are suspended or banned, problem solved.

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

[Shurrikhan]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

It's the opposite, on both points.

People wanting to get good are not rare. They're just left starved of information and placed in a tenuous position by those not wanting to improve treating them as "tryhards" or "disrespectful" for enjoying their own progress... at the same time as players who would otherwise give advice are continuously insulted or threatened into silence. (Literally just a few days ago on my Leveling Roulette, my healer's first response to "Good morning, all" and, several minutes later, "You can Excog before the pull so it comes up again during the fight; it won't trigger any enmity except on the initial application (barely) and the eventual heal," was "Do I need to report you, too? Stfu, seriously." I wish that kind of behavior was rare, but all I can say is that at least I doubt it's prevalent as people wanting to improve in some way. I therefore still try to help out where I can, though I'm very often burned, but I know plenty of people who have given up entirely on helping due to that kind of disproportionate backlash.) By so often pushing a gag-order onto the would-be helpful players, they've put a blanket over would-be learners as well. It's nothing impenetrable, but it does hurt them.

There are some levels of performance that indicate bad play, though in no way that requires a parser to be seen. I can see when people are or are not using their CDs. I can see whether they are AoEing on trash. A parser might be able to tell me that they're doing less than half of what they should be, but I could already easily guess that from the fact that they're using single-target combos in a 10-mob pull.

But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we're talking about personal parsers -- a learning tool by which players can measure their progress and check their expectations against what actually happened. That's what you're recommending be taken away from the casual player just because they might then be aware of how much it costs their performance to not AoE, to not use CDs, to break their combos, etc. And yet you treat it as if you're protecting them. You're not. You're tossing a blanket over their heads so that they can stay still and make a better prop.

There is bad play, there are bad players, there are people who do not generally want to improve, and there are people who refuse to improve to the point of being actively hostile towards others. Nothing is final until we hit the last stage, but the fact that so many players cut their advice short after the first or second level -- or stop bothering outright to help -- for fear of the frustrations and mood-killers of that last tier, is less of casual vs. elitist problem as a simple issue of ettiquette. On one side, the helper may lack the tact to be effective, and come off instead as another domineering mentor whose head has been swelled by their crown. On the other, the defensiveness is generally excessive and the undesireable behavior (getting unwanted, if not unwarranted, advice) is usually better averted without threats or verbal abuse. Yesterday's tank-healer (both less geared than typical) 'conflict' went only as far as "Healer, could you sprint with me so I can survive this pull? I'll track your CD to make sure I can't take off without you." -> "Sorry, just trying to destress before bed; I'm pretty out of it." -> "Oh, shoot, nw's then. Split-pulling."

Players could be a lot more helpful by being more directly relevant and tactful in their advice, sure, but to treat any critique or request as harassment or any information which might inform someone of their chances to improve as incendiary only simplifies the above tiers into "those who can" and "those who can't", with as little fluidity as possible between the two. And that's no favorable state for the game, or indeed any MMO.

[Paidhi]

It seems from all the other MMOs I've played FF is the only current major MMO on the market where a fair amount of the player base seems to struggle with competency. From WoW, to ESO, to GW2, people seem to be able to take the 5 min needed to learn their class and read the tool tips more often then not.

That being said Third party or not, people will always be idiots when it comes down to these things. Removing the use of ACT outright will change nothing, Adding one will change nothing. As hard or as messed up as it sounds, people that seem to always be on the bad end of parsing situation should learn to play their job and the game as everyone else who currently plays and clears endgame has if they want to participate in end game anything really.

lets say we give Timmy an ingame SE sanctioned dps meter, that doesnt stop Timmy from not knowing his rotation and not wanting to change that and self improve. Timmy doesn't care about that and thinks hes fine, the people in the group my be willing to tolerate him if hes doing okish, and if hes not he'll be removed. The same if said people are using third party parsers. The issue is not application based its community based.

When you look at WoW, we have Recount, Details, Skada Damage Meter, all filled with all the essential things needed for a raider to see whos doing what needs to be done for a potential clear. When someone wants to bash or mistreat players they're reported, they are suspended or banned, problem solved.

The tool is never at fault because it can only tell facts, what you do with those facts is the issue, People NEED to be willing to improve within FFs community, removing or adding a meter will change nothing so long as this remains the issue.

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

[Paidhi]

Players could be a lot more helpful by being more directly relevant and tactful in their advice, sure, but to treat any critique or request as harassment or any information which might inform someone of their chances to improve as incendiary only simplifies the above tiers into "those who can" and "those who can't", with as little fluidity as possible between the two. And that's no favorable state for the game, or indeed any MMO.

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

[ReiMakoto]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

People already ask for buffs and nerfs based on the 3rd party information that we already have so nothing changes there. Also I disagree to an extent, this is a multiplayer game, there comes a time when how you want to play the game clashes with the other 3 people in a dungeon and especially in a game as rigid as ffxiv wanting to be freestyle or play your own way will almost always mean youre dragging down other people, and honestly I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

[Paidhi]

I think its inherently selfish to not know what youre doing and "play your own way" at the detriment of other players.

Don't play with them then, you are not forced to do so. And you are assuming that detrimental = bad performance. I personally prefer healing a decent tank with a good attitude, than an imba tank who is a jerk.

[ForteNightshade]

Well, as long as you can play with the players you wish to do so, it does not matter. You are not to decide how other players want to play the game, it is their free time and their subscription. Now, if you are talking about a "personal" meter, then what will happen is that the forums will be flooded with "my job is nerfed, buff it". We've all seen it in others MMOs, no need to repeat it here. I would say FF is quite successful as it is, and more important, it is growing.

It is also my time and subscription. And when it comes to Savage their lackluster perform can be a liability. Why am I obligated to compensate for someone who isn't considerate enough to care about anyone else's time but their own? As for flooding the forums. Have you looked at the job section? That's typically what people talk about there; jobs being either underpowered or disliking the design choices made. A personal DPS wouldn't have any impact on that save to give players a more accurate assessment of their jobs capability. Why is having more information a bad thing? Coincidentally, FFlogs is more or less accurate regardless. So once again, this already exists.

And more than half the growing raid community uses third party tools the devs look the other way about. Meanwhile, other players who genuinely want to improve or simply have no idea they're doing anything wrong, thus wonder why they might be kicked from a PF either get these same third party tools or don't even know they exist. SE's stance is to keep everyone in the dark and hope it works. It hasn't.