In Defence of DPS meters.

[Paidhi]

People trying to get good don't tell you to "<expletive> off" the moment you try to give helpful advice.
People trying to get good don't afk mid-fight.
People trying to get good at least understand the basics of the abilities they had more than 20 levels ago.
People trying to get good at least make use of their toolkit.
People trying to get good at least try to understand how they might, generally speaking, save time or further learn to improve their performance.
People trying to get good at least try once or twice to trust their party when they tell them they can survive if they just use their cooldowns and either AoE or spam heals on the tank and give it a shot before arguing that their say should trump that of their party.

That's the level of competency generally expected from the vast majority of content played in this game. If they were in fact "trying to get good", you'd see far, far fewer people take any issue with them. Again, it's not a high bar.

I've met people trying to get good. They're generally among the most fun runs I get, even if they take longer, because it feels like something was really accomplished and I got to be social for once. But this is not that.

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

[ReiMakoto]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

Thats a mischaracterisation, the thread got to here because we were saying dps meters would unmask the large amount of lazy players, i.e. clearly putting in minimum effort and don't listen to any advice given to them. You can be bad and still be trying by listening to advice and trying to implement it and thats fine, dps meters wouldnt change that.

[Paidhi]

Thats a mischaracterisation, the thread got to here because we were saying dps meters would unmask the large amount of lazy players, i.e. clearly putting in minimum effort and don't listen to any advice given to them. You can be bad and still be trying by listening to advice and trying to implement it and thats fine, dps meters wouldnt change that.

This is precisely the kind of community dynamics that the lack of a dps meters helps to avoid which is very good in my opinion. Others are jobs balancing problems, BiS lists, etc. The developers are doing a very good job at avoiding that such issues/dynamics get into the community.

[FirstnameLastname]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

Yes, as clearly seen in literally any other MMO. Oh wait, players don't actually do that. FFXIV players are just too whiny to handle the truth.

[Shurrikhan]

Nice then. Get into an FC of good people, problem solved.
And it is no wonder this thread has quickly derailed into a bad vs good player argument, because this is how ppl would use a dps meter.

It's the opposite, on both points.

People wanting to get good are not rare. They're just left starved of information and placed in a tenuous position by those not wanting to improve treating them as "tryhards" or "disrespectful" for enjoying their own progress... at the same time as players who would otherwise give advice are continuously insulted or threatened into silence. (Literally just a few days ago on my Leveling Roulette, my healer's first response to "Good morning, all" and, several minutes later, "You can Excog before the pull so it comes up again during the fight; it won't trigger any enmity except on the initial application (barely) and the eventual heal," was "Do I need to report you, too? Stfu, seriously." I wish that kind of behavior was rare, but all I can say is that at least I doubt it's prevalent as people wanting to improve in some way. I therefore still try to help out where I can, though I'm very often burned, but I know plenty of people who have given up entirely on helping due to that kind of disproportionate backlash.) By so often pushing a gag-order onto the would-be helpful players, they've put a blanket over would-be learners as well. It's nothing impenetrable, but it does hurt them.

There are some levels of performance that indicate bad play, though in no way that requires a parser to be seen. I can see when people are or are not using their CDs. I can see whether they are AoEing on trash. A parser might be able to tell me that they're doing less than half of what they should be, but I could already easily guess that from the fact that they're using single-target combos in a 10-mob pull.

But that's all irrelevant anyway, as we're talking about personal parsers -- a learning tool by which players can measure their progress and check their expectations against what actually happened. That's what you're recommending be taken away from the casual player just because they might then be aware of how much it costs their performance to not AoE, to not use CDs, to break their combos, etc. And yet you treat it as if you're protecting them. You're not. You're tossing a blanket over their heads so that they can stay still and make a better prop.

There is bad play, there are bad players, there are people who do not generally want to improve, and there are people who refuse to improve to the point of being actively hostile towards others. Nothing is final until we hit the last stage, but the fact that so many players cut their advice short after the first or second level -- or stop bothering outright to help -- for fear of the frustrations and mood-killers of that last tier, is less of casual vs. elitist problem as a simple issue of ettiquette. On one side, the helper may lack the tact to be effective, and come off instead as another domineering mentor whose head has been swelled by their crown. On the other, the defensiveness is generally excessive and the undesireable behavior (getting unwanted, if not unwarranted, advice) is usually better averted without threats or verbal abuse. Yesterday's tank-healer (both less geared than typical) 'conflict' went only as far as "Healer, could you sprint with me so I can survive this pull? I'll track your CD to make sure I can't take off without you." -> "Sorry, just trying to destress before bed; I'm pretty out of it." -> "Oh, shoot, nw's then. Split-pulling."

Players could be a lot more helpful by being more directly relevant and tactful in their advice, sure, but to treat any critique or request as harassment or any information which might inform someone of their chances to improve as incendiary only simplifies the above tiers into "those who can" and "those who can't", with as little fluidity as possible between the two. And that's no favorable state for the game, or indeed any MMO.

[Paidhi]

Players could be a lot more helpful by being more directly relevant and tactful in their advice, sure, but to treat any critique or request as harassment or any information which might inform someone of their chances to improve as incendiary only simplifies the above tiers into "those who can" and "those who can't", with as little fluidity as possible between the two. And that's no favorable state for the game, or indeed any MMO.

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

[Angus-Beef]

The sad truth is, tools like meters, raidio, etc, will be abused. We know this happens. You cant downplay the social negatives of such tools because it is actually the main reason to not have them.

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

[Shurrikhan]

There are actually more social negatives if people can't figure out whos underperforming leading to more toxicity and blaming and shaming people randomly.

This. It's far, far higher in XIV than in the majority of games that have ubiquitous parsing.

There's no point in telling a guy, "You know you're doing half the dps the other damage-dealers are doing, right?" when everyone has those same numbers. Where parsing is ubiquitous, the conversation efficiently skips that step. Instead, people switch to observation. We check to see if they seem merely distracted or to find out what's going wrong, or at worst just run a quick verbal check before whatever time we'd need full performance on and with time enough to correct the problems seen (e.g. your Fire Mage using Fire Blast on cooldown instead of only on Heating Up or whatever common knowledge issue others might be able to easily fix).

[Angus-Beef]

This. It's far, far higher in XIV than in the majority of games that have ubiquitous parsing.

There's no point in telling a guy, "You know you're doing half the dps the other damage-dealers are doing, right?" when everyone has those same numbers. Where parsing is ubiquitous, the conversation efficiently skips that step. Instead, people switch to observation. We check to see if they seem merely distracted or to find out what's going wrong, or at worst just run a quick verbal check before whatever time we'd need full performance on and with time enough to correct the problems seen (e.g. your Fire Mage using Fire Blast on cooldown instead of only on Heating Up or whatever common knowledge issue others might be able to easily fix).

Thats just it in FF, yet when you purpose this to the majority it's met with disdain. If we can make it so people at LEAST see thats it's their own mistake then they'll be more willing to fix it.

[Paidhi]

Thats just it in FF, yet when you purpose this to the majority it's met with disdain. If we can make it so people at LEAST see thats it's their own mistake then they'll be more willing to fix it.

Why should they have to adapt to your concept of fun? They are not interested in fixing a thing it is not ever an issue to them.