the dragoon is penalized

[Mhilthia]

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.

[ReiMakoto]

You all talk about buffing... Do you even play each single job at Square Enix?
The DRG, for istance, is the only melee who cannot count on the use of a off-global cd skill which allows him to fast approach the boss, such as shukichi, gyoten or tackle shoulder.
DRG has got Elusive Jump, yeah... the same skill which kills you if you make 1cm mistake in positioning.
Or maybe Spinshatter Dive, which has 1min of cd for 240 of potency. Why don’t you nerf this useless skill adding 2 stacks of use to it?
What about Chaos Thrust? 24 sec... it expires each time you need to move during DRG rotation.
On the other hand, Disembowel lasts 30 sec and it’s easier to refresh it before it expires. So why don’t you make Chaos last 30 sec, too?
Please, next time try focusing on useful adjustments, not useless ones such as Blood of Dragoon updates.

Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it, it doesnt matter if you clip disembowel as its a damage buff, so yeah rewarding dragoons with good uptime on chaos thrust if they keep uptime is good class design.

Unlike Monk and the other classes with 2 charges on gap closers, dragoon is the only class that has a movement ability without needing a target, as well as having 3 different gap closers, dragoon has loads of mobility, and if you think that elusive is bad design cos YOU miss with it, then you just need to get better at dragoon, its called having a skill cieling.

[Mhilthia]

first of all high jump takes you back to where you start the skill, so you can't consider it such, then both dragon fire and spinshatter, you have to pull them in rotation and recast to not lose dps, so keep them on occasions when the boss jumps is a loss of dps. for the elusive jump it is great to escape from some things, but to get closer it is too risky, because you have to turn your back, if it were like the en avant I would give you reason, but it is not.
as for the chaos, I would prefer to recast it at 2 or 3 sec all the time, that to make it expire every time you have to move, it is a skill in rotation, not a dot like higanbana that you have to pay attention to and you can refresh it also at 1, it is refresh in auto, so if the clip is a problem, they would raise it to at least 26, so there is no risk of it expiring

[ReiMakoto]

first of all high jump takes you back to where you start the skill, so you can't consider it such, then both dragon fire and spinshatter, you have to pull them in rotation and recast to not lose dps, so keep them on occasions when the boss jumps is a loss of dps. for the elusive jump it is great to escape from some things, but to get closer it is too risky, because you have to turn your back, if it were like the en avant I would give you reason, but it is not.
as for the chaos, I would prefer to recast it at 2 or 3 sec all the time, that to make it expire every time you have to move, it is a skill in rotation, not a dot like higanbana that you have to pay attention to and you can refresh it also at 1, it is refresh in auto, so if the clip is a problem, they would raise it to at least 26, so there is no risk of it expiring

I wasn't referring to high jump as a gap closer I was referring to stardiver but okay, its not difficult to turn around and use elusive jump, on legacy cam you literally just press backwards, not hard, be better at drg I guess. Also your thinking of chaos thrust wrong imo, as its a step in a combo you use ridgidly and not a free dot, think of it as a 645 potency attack like full thrust but stronger, making it last longer just isn't necessary

[SpeckledBurd]

Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it, it doesnt matter if you clip disembowel as its a damage buff, so yeah rewarding dragoons with good uptime on chaos thrust if they keep uptime is good class design.

Unlike Monk and the other classes with 2 charges on gap closers, dragoon is the only class that has a movement ability without needing a target, as well as having 3 different gap closers, dragoon has loads of mobility, and if you think that elusive is bad design cos YOU miss with it, then you just need to get better at dragoon, its called having a skill cieling.

Yeah at this point the job that's really getting the short end of the stick in terms of movement is Monk, not Dragoon. It has two charges on Shoulder Tackle which doesn't completely fix the problem of needing to use it on cooldown for damage most of the time. We can sit on one charge for a while, but we're still incentivized to get both of those charges off in Riddle of Fire and we don't have anything that's actually DPS free like Shikuchi/Gyoten/Elusive Jump. Dragoon is somewhat similar in that it wants to use Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive during Lance Charge, but it still has elusive jump 30 seconds as an option that doesn't cost DPS, and Ninja and Samurai both have pretty much flawless movement kits at the moment.

[Lastelli]

Yeah at this point the job that's really getting the short end of the stick in terms of movement is Monk, not Dragoon. It has two charges on Shoulder Tackle which doesn't completely fix the problem of needing to use it on cooldown for damage most of the time. We can sit on one charge for a while, but we're still incentivized to get both of those charges off in Riddle of Fire and we don't have anything that's actually DPS free like Shikuchi/Gyoten/Elusive Jump. Dragoon is somewhat similar in that it wants to use Spineshatter and Dragonfire Dive during Lance Charge, but it still has elusive jump 30 seconds as an option that doesn't cost DPS, and Ninja and Samurai both have pretty much flawless movement kits at the moment.

Gyoten is not DPS free, though.

And MNK partly makes up for it with six-sided star and, if needed, meditation.

All melee jobs have their pros and cons when it comes to forced downtime, thankfully...we really don't need any more homogenization.

[SpeckledBurd]

Gyoten is not DPS free, though.

And MNK partly makes up for it with six-sided star and, if needed, meditation.

All melee jobs have their pros and cons when it comes to forced downtime, thankfully...we really don't need any more homogenization.

It's Neutral or so Neutral as not to matter then. The kenki cost per point per the actual hit is minimal compared to Shinten to the point where any fraction of a GCD you'll save makes up for the minor inefficiency, and more importantly it's cooldown is so short that you'll almost never have it down when you need it.

SSS and Meditation are more akin to a ranged skill like Enpi that Monk which, yes is forced downtime but that isn't the conversation here, it's mobility.

In the case of Mobility Monk is undeniably the worst, with a low number of gap closers in a minute which are are incentivized to be dumped inside of a buff window, without an *actual* backstep and without any form of free movement.

[Shurrikhan]

Making Chaos Thrust last 30s would mean you would clip it every time you tried using it.

I can agree with most of the rest of this, but... having a longer DoT time is objectively better than having a shorter time, especially when it's being clipped and is therefore not balanced around in "on paper" calculations. It allows for greater downtime mitigation/flexibility and cleave potential.

[KalinOrthos]

I can agree with most of the rest of this, but... having a longer DoT time is objectively better than having a shorter time, especially when it's being clipped and is therefore not balanced around in "on paper" calculations. It allows for greater downtime mitigation/flexibility and cleave potential.

I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT. It's the difference between 1 second left before it falls off and 7 seconds left before it falls off. It gives a pretty good skill ceiling by giving players a marker to say "Hey, really good players will keep this DoT up as much as possible" while not being tragically punishing if it does happen to fall off, simply because you're not going to cause a wipe because Chaos Thrust missed two ticks.

[Shurrikhan]

I think it's balanced around the same circumstances as monk's Demolish or paladin's Goring Blade is calculated. As it is right now, with 100% uptime on a boss, you should be reapplying your DoT either as soon as or instants before it falls off, and it's not going out of your way to do so; it's done as a natural step in your combo. If you increase the DoT length, theorycrafters are going to end up twisting the meta in order to get in two other GCDs somewhere so that you can make use of that extra tick or two of your DoT.

If that were the case, we would have seen the same done back in HW, when up to 2 ticks would be clipped each time. And would that really be so bad, anyways, if some higher-SkS DRGs fit in an extra Full Thrust combo per CT? Would it break the job for it to optionally be more than just A B A B A B ad nauseum?

Shadow Fang similarly had intentionally excessive duration during SB so that players at typical (read, optimal) Skill Speeds could work in a limited number of clipped casts per SF in order not to clip its tick, giving them options to work around more than just "follow this rigid combo, but... harder?" Demolish has likewise always allowed for rotational deviation over different SkS breakpoints. In ARR, ToD and Fracture together allowed for perfect timing at typical Crit-high Skill Speeds. In HW, high SkS allowed for a further cycle per Demolish at slight delay or to clip it well short of completion. In SB, the same (though with less modular adjustment possible). The same can be said for Shifu and Jinpu in SB; their durations being variably excessive, eventually reaching new rotational allowances, made SkS breakpoints feel meaningful.

Each of those rotations were made more interesting for the choice provided by an "excessive" DoT duration. I don't see why what has already worked for every melee, including DRG itself in ARR and HW, would suddenly not work. Historically, it's likely to improve gameplay. At the worst, it can't hurt it -- instead merely increasing DRG relative uptime in particular fights and improving its cleave in some rare situations.