Summoner post Shadowbringers

[Anvaire]

I was thinking the other day about how the events of Shadowbringers would affect a summoner and it got me thinking.

Currently, egi's are created from attunement and exposure to a primal's aether. The summoner then internalizes that aether and then combines it with their own to create Egi's.

Trances are the channeling of primal aether in the ambient atmosphere to utilize their abilities. Lore wise this method was developed to overcome the limit of holding 3 types of a primal aether within a person.

Demi Summons seems to be an amalgamation of both the Egi and the Trance method. We can Summon Demi Bahamut by utilizing the residual aether from a Dreadwyrm Trance. For firebird and Phoenix though no explanation is given, I suspect exposure and attunement to this aether comes from the calamity, and we gain some residual phoenix aether from using Bahamut and Dreadwym respectively. This is why we can use both trance and Demi phoenix simultaneously. Though as mentioned this is more my headcanon rather than established lore fact.

which then leaves the question given that we absorbed and internalized every Lightwardens aether, post Shadowbringers in theory, should we be able to call Demi Titania, Demi innocence.

How does our merger with Ardbert affect our capacity to hold more aether? For me I suspect that demi Innocence or Demi Titania would be an amazing addition to our arsenal. (Or at some point if we ever get egi/demi Glamours - id been thrilled)

Anyway what do you all think?

[RicaRuin]

Demi-Innocence and Demi-Titania are not likely. They aren't Primals, but Lightwardens which probably work differently. And the aether/light we absorbed from them already left our body I guess...?

[Anvaire]

I'm not so sure. I think while a primal is a construct of belief and aether, im not sure it is so different from a being infused and altered by aetherial balance. louisoix and phoenix are both an example of this. Louisoix became the primal Phoenix by external belief and aether affecting his corporeal being. Innocence and Titania underwent a similar transformation.

I think it comes down to what the Summoner actually summons, is it a simulacrum of the primal using the essence of the primal aether as a base? Or is the shape denoted by the Summoner seeing the primal previous and this perception giving the primal its form? I think any lightwarden would make an interesting demi for the summoner.

[JeanneOrnitier]

Even if it could he done (which I dont think since they aren't Primals) we used up the light from the warden's during the Hades fight. It's not inside the WoL anymore.

[Enkidoh]

Even if it could he done (which I dont think since they aren't Primals) we used up the light from the warden's during the Hades fight. It's not inside the WoL anymore.

^This. We consumed all of it generating the Axe of Light with Ardbert's help to punch a hole in Emet - it is completley expunged from the WoL's soul (both Y'shtola and Ryne outright state this after the battle). And said Axe of Light then disintergrated into nothing after Emet finally did his best 'defeat of Kadaj' in Advent Children impersonation, so the corrupted Light aether that was contained within us is now completely gone from us for good (presumedly 'obeyed the laws of nature and returned to the river of aether' like when a Primal is defeated).

Ardbert's soul merge with us did heal our soul after it was nearly torn apart by said Light aether though, so it may possibly help increase our aetheric limits. But to be really honest, I don't think you will see much if any reflection (ha!) of that in actual gameplay though.

[Anvaire]

Although I do see what you are getting at, i don't think a Sin-Eater' aether is much different from a primal. It is still a being created from living aether. With regards to using it all up while it is inferred that we did so creating the Axe of light and fighting Hades, Y'shtola's words were "His Aether... it is as it used to be... Was the darkness to your light," my interpretation of this is that the light aspected aether we used was diminished enough to return our aetherial balance to its usual state. However, if a residual ambience exists then it is possible we would be able to use this attunement to channel the residual sin eater aether combine it with our own aether to create a simulacrum of the sin eaters we fought. I think the difference between a normal primal and those that we summon is that summoning a demi and egi is the act of channeling the residual ambient aether from the environment and using it to create something that has some of the abilities but not not the will or drive of a usual primal.

From this basis i do think it is plausible that a summoner could channel the ambient sin-eater aether from the Aetherial sea and use it to create an egi or demi.

Of course, this could also not be the case.

As for what Ardbert's soul merger did, I suspect it repaired our fragmenting and cracking soul and increased the amount of aether we could hold which makes us stronger. Not sure what effect that would have though.

[ObsidianFire]

The big thing about Summoner is that it's probably the class that is the closest to the Ancients when it comes to Creation Magic. When you really get down to it, what we are doing when we create Egi is making something semi-sentient that is based on an aether pattern that got "stuck" in us when something died. And if the Lvl 70 SMN quest is anything to go by, it really doesn't matter what the thing that died is. What matters is how difficult the aether "math/geometry" is.

For whatever reason, primal "math" is easy enough for us to do with just our spell-book. Probably because Primals are primarily Concepts. The Demis seem to be the HDR version of Egis and so need some more computational "oomph" behind them (and so need computers to do part of the job for us). The "hard" stuff seems to be things like people, that aren't based on any specific Concept.

Given that Phoneix was the product of Ancient Creation Magic long before it became a primal, I would think the SMN job would go more in that direction. That would uncouple the SMN job from primals specifically and open up the door for SMN being able to "Create" anything so long as they have the aether control/computational power. I would love it if SMN somehow got tied to Amarot. It just seems like the perfect fit for the job as far as lore goes. Heck, it doesn't take that much headcanon to suppose that SMN got Phoenix Trance/Demi in the first place from looking through the Acadmedia Aydenar's records of failed Concepts and realizing they had all the arcane knowledge to pull Phoenix off.

If the WoL does make any Sin Eater themed egis or trances, I would think it wouldn't have anything to do with the Light that used to be in us or Sin Eaters in particular. Creation Magic isn't really limited by that stuff. All we would need is a "template" for a Sin Eater or Lightwarden concept and there you go. We've killed a bunch of Sin Eaters as it is, so we technically already have their aether pattern in us after all. But I don't think they would be any different then the Egis, Trances, or Demis we already have. They might as well just make egi-glamours for it.

I think the bigger issue would be justifying the game mechancis of the thing, rather then the lore. SMN is already overloaded with mechanics as it is. It doesn't need more. So my reason for SMN not having Sin Eater themed stuff has nothing to do with lore and everything to do with thinking SMN's current playstyle doesn't need anything really new added to it. Not more then it already does in any case.

[TinyRedLeaf]

^ Yes, very much the above. To me, one of the biggest revelations from Shadowbringers was that the Sundering was caused — whether directly or indirectly — by Creation magic and, secondly, that Creation magic was, in effect, the precursor of Summoning as we know it today.

In fact, the mechanics appear almost similar: The summoner has to be able to clearly visualise the concept in his mind, and apply arcane geometry to shape his aether into the entity he envisioned. Any stray thoughts during the conceptualisation process, and you'll end up with something different from what you were planning for. And, crucially, an entity brought to "life" through the process with insufficient aether would seek to sustain its existence by continuously absorbing more aether from the environment.

The single defining distinction between Creation and Summoning, it seems, boils down to whether you're creating something entirely new from scratch, or whether you're trying to re-create an entity from an aetheric imprint you acquired through some form of previous interaction. I would imagine that the amount of computation for actual Creation is a few orders of magnitude more challenging than "mere" summoning. But, with sufficient computing power, I think it's quite possible, in principle, for a summoner to turn into a Creation Mage.

Think of the possibilities! If the application of highly advanced Allagan computers could allow for the summoning of a high-resolution, high-fidelity egi like that of Sari, the last Allagan summoner, imagine what more could be re-created through the science of the Ancients?

(Make Summoner the poster class for an expansion please! Why does the Derplander always have to take up a discipline of war?)

[HeulGDarian]

Oh my god i love this thread finally something that loves smn and doesnt want its lore to die and be reworked

[JeanneOrnitier]

I think the bigger issue would be justifying the game mechancis of the thing, rather then the lore. SMN is already overloaded with mechanics as it is. It doesn't need more. So my reason for SMN not having Sin Eater themed stuff has nothing to do with lore and everything to do with thinking SMN's current playstyle doesn't need anything really new added to it. Not more then it already does in any case.

Something that would be cool would be to introduce more Egi Glamours and maybe even Trance Glamours. That way they could introduce, for just an example, something like Demi Ultima (High Seraph, not Weapon) without actually adding more mechanics to the job. Just let us glam over Bahamut or Phoenix. Or something like Bismarck-Egi to put on top of Garuda.

Instead of mechanical changes, cosmetic ones. Let the individual player decide which Primals they want their SMN to use.