Recent Developments of TOS Actions Taken

[Nedkel]

What is the point of your statement since you haven’t watch the video but already choose to stand on streamer’s side?

Because being meanie is being meanie and he and streamer should get banned anyway.

[Angus-Beef]

This is not a defense of anyone involved just how I see things based on what I've seen.


I feel like a verbal warning would make more sense if anything in the case of Arthars, as for the aspect of people not being banned for things that are generally worse then him talking crap about someone outside game and on his stream.

They didnt Ban him for ACT use which would have made more sense given what is currently within the ToS to do, over him saying something *mean* on a third party platform.

They spoke on him talking poorly about someone. Does he have the power to start a *witch hunt*? Yes he does. Did he, has he, will he? No.

As a long time MMO player I feel its just part of what comes with the game. I think everyones been there and talked about the dumb things they see, and made inside jokes and memes.

While some may not like the reality of it, its a normal aspect of playing online games. For SE to do what they did opens the flood gates to people being banned with out of context evidence being used against them, which can prove to hurt them as a company.

I for one don't think I should be held accountable for saying something about someone in a group I was in being a bad player on ANY third party platform, that means twitch, discord, skype, teamspeak, twitter, etc. The list goes on.

I feel attempting to police the community outside the game will change nothing. You cannot ban people or be mad at anyone for venting, or making jokes as a means to NOT say it to that person in game where SE's jurisdiction is. So cracking jokes about a Bad BLM to twitch chat, not bannable, saying something foul in DIscord, not bannable, talking crap on twitter not bannable.

SE needs to be more clear going forward.

[Melichoir]

snips

I oversimplified what you said, so sorry bout that. And yes, you are right. It shouldn't matter how big your channel size is. If youre gonna be a jerk and post names and what not to start crap on public streams to directly impact another player, than that should be addressed; channel size shouldn't be a factor.

As for botting, thats a separate issue. Here's the distinction and why it matters. In this case, we have a specific player (arthars) being an ass to another player and using his parsing and streaming to publicly shame another player. He is the one doing the aggression and recording himself doing it. This isnt like recording a botter or hacker. In that case, you are providing evidence on another player's wrong doing from your perspective and there is some level of possibility that things are being skewed or framed in a bad faith way. Let me try to frame this another way: There is a difference between you recording yourself running a red light and bragging about it, and someone taking a picture of a person crossing an intersection on what appears to be a red light. That red light in the picture could be a broken traffic light blinking red intermittently. The picture in of itself is not inherently indisputable evidence of wrong doing. And thats why SE doesnt typically use player provided evidence on another player because theres a chance of it being tainted evidence. But I also wouldnt be surprised that while they wouldnt ban on it, they may investigate it quietly themselves if there are enough compelling reports.

As for parses, it doesnt matter if its bad for SE, or its for money, or whatever. They have rules and they bend those rules for our sake. Arguing that they should be listing every little thing and only adhering to the specifically listed rules and there should be no 'spirit of the law' flexibility is gonna make things way worse for us. It's like saying "How dare that officer let me off with a warning for that rolling stop! I shouldve been given a ticket cause its clearly illegal!" Dont think anyone is gonna be super in favor of every rule and by law being enforced with teh addition of new rules that address every nuance and its up to US to know all the rules and abide by them.

[Vnolan]

So if they are fair and are now using outside information, anyone streaming with a parser should theoretically be punished. Because they are using something which is against the ToS.

Parsing is officially against the ToS, but Yoshida has said you can use it if you keep it to yourself, but an interesting question is brought up: Is streaming considered keeping it to yourself?

If the policy has changed, then we need to know exactly how and when it is going to be enforced.

Don't break the ToS. Problem solved. Unlikely that you'll get a definitive answer to "Which rules are we allowed to break?"

A player can invest a considerable amount of time, effort and energy into the game. That isn't something that should be taken away lightly. If an account is otherwise clean and the act itself isn't something extremely terrible then it baffles me that the default approach isn't simply a verbal warning.

Already taken into account with the penalty system:
Account Penalty Policy

They'll punish someone for being a jerk but not someone for cheating. Why?

Because harassment is handled by GMs and cheating is handled by the STF. Good luck getting any info on how the STF operates.

If I go and record someone botting right now and submit that evidence to a GM, the botter should be dealt with accordingly.

Ignoring the fact that GMs do not deal with bots, the appropriate example would be submitting a link to a stream/VOD hosted by the botter while they were botting, not of you catching them botting on your stream.

[Noitems]

Update from Arthars. Nutkin censor for my own sake.

[Xeros_cl]

Anyone can be offended at anything and can report the offense, but SE will still have to make a judgment call on whether it is an actionable offense. The potential to offend someone with anything does not excuse actions that are actually meant to be offensive (again, SE will have to make a judgment call on that). (I didn't see the actual clip, so this is not talking specifically about this incident.)

That's why Im more worried about it and mainly din't touch the chat

An example I found in Reddit (Can't verify tho)

I was downvoted to hell when they notified everyone about changing the TOD for harassment a while back. They made the language so vague that even telling someone how to do mechanics could be considered “criticism of play style” and worth a suspension.

I was suspended a few weeks ago for 3 days. My offense? During one of the raids, I asked in chat, “does anyone not know the mechanics? You have to actually stand in the circles and save the LB for the end.” That was my only message.

I was then told I’d be suspended for offending another persons play style. I said I only gave advice after confirming that raid was indeed the reason I was getting suspended.

I was told by the GM, “even advice violates our TOS if another play feels uncomfortable.”

It was unbelievable. I screenshot it and showed my wife. I literally do not use chat at all anymore for fear of it happening again. I ignored everyone and everything.

I read somewhere that streamer has been provoked by that guy, who was the first person who started all the fuss harassing tanks in team for poor performance and he done that in agressive manner.

Cant tell 100% because i have not seen the video.

A FC friend saw the video and confirm me the BLM was complaining about the streamer gameplay too. And that can lead you to think the whole situation was premeditated. If he was seeing the stream he knows how he would react to a BLM doing poor DPS. Not that I condone this actions but I feel he is the one who fell in the BLM trap in the end

[Melichoir]

snips

Id have to say I need more proof from that reddit post, because other than an overzealous GM, the likelyhood of saying "Use LB at the end of a fight and dont stand in circles" resulting in a suspension comes across as far fetched. Letting my cynicism and skepticism take a stab at that claim, Id say that the poster is downplaying their words to appear more innocent. In my time a this game and on sites, Ive only seen one legit case where that a player was short term suspended for saying something innocuous and was due to a misunderstanding that eventually over turned the suspension. Most times the player is being incredibly abbrasive in chat among other things that results in the suspension. The more 'demure' the story, the more likely Im to disbelieve it unfortunately.

[linay]

I said if they're going to use Twitch videos as evidence now, when they haven't in the past. It should apply to everyone, regardless of their popularity or verification status on Twitch.

Actually, the verification status might be a differentiating factor. It's one thing to take outside evidence from someone else and it's another when it's a self-implicating evidence even if it's from an outside source.

That's why Im more worried about it and mainly din't touch the chat

An example I found in Reddit (Can't verify tho)

I was downvoted to hell when they notified everyone about changing the TOD for harassment a while back. They made the language so vague that even telling someone how to do mechanics could be considered “criticism of play style” and worth a suspension.

I was suspended a few weeks ago for 3 days. My offense? During one of the raids, I asked in chat, “does anyone not know the mechanics? You have to actually stand in the circles and save the LB for the end.” That was my only message.

I was then told I’d be suspended for offending another persons play style. I said I only gave advice after confirming that raid was indeed the reason I was getting suspended.

I was told by the GM, “even advice violates our TOS if another play feels uncomfortable.”

It was unbelievable. I screenshot it and showed my wife. I literally do not use chat at all anymore for fear of it happening again. I ignored everyone and everything.

That would be bad, if true, but like you said, it can't be verified. That said, I don't think it's beneficial to live in fear of what is presumably a fringe case, as that seems a weird example of a violation.

[Melichoir]

Parsing is officially against the ToS, but Yoshida has said you can use it if you keep it to yourself, but an interesting question is brought up: Is streaming considered keeping it to yourself?

Most streamers cover/blur the names of their party members/chat/etc, so its been probably overlooked. Again, the point of the "Dont Parse" and "Parse is fine if you keep it yourself" is to address harassment. They probably dont care if you parse or stream parsing so long as its not being used to go after other players.

[Infindox]

Alright time to post what I said in another area.

This streamer literally painted a big red target on themselves. When you are streaming to a group of people, you are, at that moment, a face for XIV. You are reflecting the game. Your account is also right there for everyone to see.
When SE says that they can't take certain evidence into account, it's because that evidence is easy to doctor or edit. This was just something yelling "hey, look at me!!"

We all here have had times where we had a bad run. Yell about it to your friends. Yell about it to your static. Don't tell the world. Or if you are going to block the person's name out. That simple