Tanking feels unimportant

[ReiMakoto]

Oh, I feel the same way. Balance is very tight right now between the tanks. Were you around for the very lengthy thread on how tank damage felt? It was pretty recent, maybe a month or so ago, and quite long.

Oh I procrastinate a lot so I skim most threads on this forum, only thing I got from that thread though was WAR complaints about not hitting hard enough and some qol about storms eye and the usual drk complaints, did I miss anything of note.

[Quor]

Oh I procrastinate a lot so I skim most threads on this forum, only thing I got from that thread though was WAR complaints about not hitting hard enough and some qol about storms eye and the usual drk complaints, did I miss anything of note.

A recurrent suggestion to buff tank dps by "about 1k." The logic was essentially "tanks feel bad because I'm not doing as much relative damage compared to the dps as I did in Stormblood" and the solution put forth was "buff tank dps by 1k." No changes to tank gameplay, no new complexity (although others did discuss that as an issue) just boosting tank damage across the board by about 1k.

To be fair, some fruitful discussion was had as a tangential result of it, but the main argument was literally focused around the relative dps of tanks compared to DPS. Also something about healer dps being too high. This is a simplified (very much so) breakdown of things, but the point was the number of calls for "1k more tank dps" without any changes. Just raw potency buffs, as if this would somehow make the job feel any different.

[Yorumi]

That's exactly the kind of attitude I seriously dislike. It's about time SE does something about the 'deeps or die - mindset'.
Rather letting someone die than to 'screw up their rotation'? Unbelievable..

I'm going to keep saying this until people realize that just because someone has a heal does not mean it's easy to use effectively. For a rdm or pld to heal they have to practically be mind readers. It's easy to talk big and be a forum warrior where people can perfectly construct a situation and analyze it outside the heat of battle but rarely if ever is that situation so clear in battle. Things are moving fast, a lot of healers allow tanks to get very low before healing because they're relying on their abilities to heal, many of which are extremely powerful heals. A pld for example is often tanking a ton of mobs with aoe markers popping up all over the place. In boss battles they're often watching for aoes or cast bars. They're trying to time blocks with sheltron. In general they're looking at a lot more than health bars. Rdm's also have to target their heal which is something that dps generally aren't used to doing.

Despite all this going on we have a whole bunch of healers who don't appear to play pld all rushing in to hurl insults at pld's because on top of all their normal duties they also aren't babysitting healers. To be quite honest go back to the healer forum, pound sand, and whine about how everybody else isn't doing your job for you.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

At least you didn't deny you have a horrible attitude you must be fun at parties, but hey at least I can forgo any politeness to show you.

S**t happens, so "most" is a word that will always be used instead of acknowledging that, you give an idiotic response of weasel... but I disagree with you so why would I get a fair response amirite. Thanks for proving my point.

If someone screwed up before a raid wide AoE, chances are by the time you've targetted and casted Clemency, either the AoE has gone out and they're dead, or the healer already got them topped because you are blatantly ignorant of just how powerful the healers toolkits are. So in casting clemency, you've just broke your combo most likely, and it had no effect but overheal or cost further DPS loss.

You seem to missed Barrett's main point, as tank, we aren't there to be watching people's health bars. Most paladin's don't go "ooh, ooh he got low can I clemency him now", no paladin worth their salt does that. I can go through every bit of content outside of prog, without having to use clemency, guess it's not as important as you make out to be, huh go figure.

TEA is an awful counter argument, well s**t, guess I said it again. And I am completely serious, just so you know by the way. Rei was nice enough to point out how suboptimal solo healer runs are, in both end floors and ultimate and the fact that solo heal is something not every group can do. It requires learning the fight inside and out...can't believe you suggested it would be meta lmfao.

I mean after you clear a fight, the only thing left is optimising the fight, and that's usually the approach a lot of raiders take. Hell optimising starts with getting clears with no deaths, by people not dying to mechanics or avoidable damage. (No this is not an opening for clemency before you try.)

But if you don't like optimising then fine you do you, but jfc, how much more crying are you gonna do, your s**tty comment about wishing away min-maxers, like who are you exactly to dictate that, nobody special in my books. I don't wish away toxic casual scrubs, I just wish for them to take advice instead of throwing it back in people's faces.

[Quor]

At least you didn't deny you have a horrible attitude you must be fun at parties, but hey at least I can forgo any politeness to show you.

S**t happens, so "most" is a word that will always be used instead of acknowledging that, you give an idiotic response of weasel... but I disagree with you so why would I get a fair response amirite. Thanks for proving my point.

If someone screwed up before a raid wide AoE, chances are by the time you've targetted and casted Clemency, either the AoE has gone out and they're dead, or the healer already got them topped because you are blatantly ignorant of just how powerful the healers toolkits are. So in casting clemency, you've just broke your combo most likely, and it had no effect but overheal or cost further DPS loss.

You seem to missed Barrett's main point, as tank, we aren't there to be watching people's health bars. Most paladin's don't go "ooh, ooh he got low can I clemency him now", no paladin worth their salt does that. I can go through every bit of content outside of prog, without having to use clemency, guess it's not as important as you make out to be, huh go figure.

TEA is an awful counter argument, well s**t, guess I said it again. And I am completely serious, just so you know by the way. Rei was nice enough to point out how suboptimal solo healer runs are, in both end floors and ultimate and the fact that solo heal is something not every group can do. It requires learning the fight inside and out...can't believe you suggested it would be meta lmfao.

I mean after you clear a fight, the only thing left is optimising the fight, and that's usually the approach a lot of raiders take. Hell optimising starts with getting clears with no deaths, by people not dying to mechanics or avoidable damage. (No this is not an opening for clemency before you try.)

But if you don't like optimising then fine you do you, but jfc, how much more crying are you gonna do, your s**tty comment about wishing away min-maxers, like who are you exactly to dictate that, nobody special in my books. I don't wish away toxic casual scrubs, I just wish for them to take advice instead of throwing it back in people's faces.

But why u mad tho?

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

But why u mad tho?

Guess you're a waste of a response in the future, remember everyone don't waste your time with this person ^

[Nedkel]

That's exactly the kind of attitude I seriously dislike. It's about time SE does something about the 'deeps or die - mindset'.
Rather letting someone die than to 'screw up their rotation'? Unbelievable..

They are doing everything in their power to make dps most important thing in the game.
Creating most of the content for it and gating bis gear behind having perfect dps.
Welcome to ffxiv, next expansion everyone is going to deep deep.

[DRKoftheAzure]

So... I want to say "nerf tank stance, bring back enmity combos" but at the same time, I also don't want everyone else to get their enmity dumps back...

Then again making enmity combos as neutral as possible for DPSing might be a step in the right direction while also making enmity combos generate massive amounts of enmity while tank stance is active which would need to bring back DPS stance to some degree...

Could also make defensive cooldowns be a GCD which boost damage dealt for the next 3 GCDs...

As for the whole PLD issue, I want Clemency to be heal shield, Divine Veil to be a raid wide heal shield, and Passage of Arms being damage reduction, stacking heal shield with a regen on top while also making their other defensive cooldowns be more focused on blocking.

WAR needs more GCDs, HP and/or healing received bonuses to their defensive cooldowns, with some kind of party buff that increases damage dealt.

DRK needs more GCDs, HP steal to offensive skills and HP shields to their defensive skills, with some kind of AoE Trick Attack(along with re-working how Darkside, Dark Arts, and Living Shadow work).

GNB needs Brutal Shell Cure potency to be bumped to 300, Aurora being an instant 1200 cure potency heal with regen intact, and Sonic Break and Bow Shock Recast timers reduced to 30 seconds.

Just some basic ideas to get the conversation back on track.

[GucciSan]

I think the problem is while they’ve simplified the role like Healers, they haven’t really done anything to compensate for it. The tanking mechanics are very barebones and amount to nothing more than hitting a CD in timed intervals and a tank swap or two.

An idea I that always comes to me when I think of interesting tank mechanics actually came to me when I was playing PvP of all things. I imagine having one or two adds that have no aggro table at all, but in exchange tanks have elements of CC in their kits for these situations. Using WAR as an example, seeing as how they already have a chain from Holmgang, they could be the only tank that could pull enemies directly to them and maybe apply a brief stun, like Unmend in PvP or Warthog from Overwatch. (IIRC Ardbert even does this exact thing to you during the showdown against the WoD in 3.4)

IMO this:

A.) Gives tanks more to differentiate between them and giving them more of a unique identity between their kits. They could all have CC but their effects and how they go about applying them could be different.

B.) Acts as a pseudo DPS check, since if the add(s) aren’t killed fast enough the situation could quickly spiral out of control

C.) Would break up the monotony of tanking by giving the tank a unique mechanic to worry about.

[deadman1204]

Uhm.
Bad tanks always existed. Most tanks in DF have always been bad, it's nothing to do with ShB.
I think I can count on the fingers of a single hand the times I've seen tanks discuss any strategy or role pre-pull.

I also never understood why a tank should be appreciated and thanked more than the rest of the group, every role has its difficulties and responsabilities, tanks are not some sort of heroes.

100% bad tanks exist. Even having best in slot gear doesn't mean a newbie wouldn't be a better tank. Amazing how many DF tanks can't find a single defensive ability.