Tanking feels unimportant

[Nedkel]

I may not like where tanking is at right now, but it's not because tanking is more accessible. It needs to be more accessible, because it has been an under-subscribed role. If (at least some) DPS-ing jobs are accessible, why should tanking and healing not be on the same level? We already have tiered content for providing more skilful players with a challenge, so I don't think it really helps the game to put a higher skill premium on some roles over others.

People dont play tanks not because they are too hard, but because they are boring as hell. Simplifying them even further will only make people run away from them, its already too simple...

The rotations are nothing in comparison to dps, but SE pretend tanks are dps with some deffensive stuff so thats how we play. A poor man version of DPS, this is basically the reason why people go away from tank jobs.
Compare BLM gameplay to the warrior, the BLM is the job which everything could change, your rotation could change, your performance could change, there is a ton of way to optimize your gameplay and do mistakes, where warrior is just straight out get buff, IR > spam fell cleave and thats it. There is a reason why people prefer to play any other tank than warrior, which is one of the simpliest job in the game.

[purgatori]

People dont play tanks not because they are too hard, but because they are boring as hell. Simplifying them even further will only make people run away from them, its already too simple...

The rotations are nothing in comparison to dps, but SE pretend tanks are dps with some deffensive stuff so thats how we play. A poor man version of DPS, this is basically the reason why people go away from tank jobs.
Compare BLM gameplay to the warrior, the BLM is the job which everything could change, your rotation could change, your performance could change, there is a ton of way to optimize your gameplay and do mistakes, where warrior is just straight out get buff, IR > spam fell cleave and thats it. There is a reason why people prefer to play any other tank than warrior, which is one of the simpliest job in the game.

Yeah, I think I may have been off-base in saying that tanks need to be more accessible. I was just resisting the OP's assertion that tanks & healers need to be more complex than DPS. I think all three roles should be about the same in terms of complexity/difficulty, while having variation between individual jobs, as well as tiers of content.

For my own part, I have to say that I definitely find both tanking and healing to be boring, with an additional layer of stress to boot, in ShB, and it's really only some of the DPS jobs that are consistently fun to play. I'm not sure how other holy-trinity MMO's get around this, if they get around this, but if it weren't for the insta-pops & 'adventurer in need' bonuses, I wouldn't bother tanking, and I only levelled a healer so I could do all of ShB's role quests.

I'd be interested to hear how this situation could be fixed, but I really don't think making 2/3 roles more demanding than the most popular one will help.

[Yorumi]

I'd be interested to hear how this situation could be fixed, but I really don't think making 2/3 roles more demanding than the most popular one will help.

every mmo has a shortage of tanks and healers. It’s a combination of people being scared to play them and also that dps numbers are much more visible. People love to see big numbers.

One fix is just to have the games use bigger parties. Somewhere along the line these games got the idea that the problem with queues was bigger parties and so they reduced them to the bare minimum. Problem is that’s the exact wrong thing to do. Larger parties create a better ratio of dps to tanks and healers. Imagine if dungeon parties in this game were 8 members(1 tank, 1 healer, 6dps). You’d have 3 times as many dps as tanks and healers. Notice how it’s alliance raids that always have dps in need.

They’re never going to change the overall distribution of roles that people choose. They’re better off acknowledging the ratio and building systems around it.

[Maeka]

every mmo has a shortage of tanks and healers. It’s a combination of people being scared to play them and also that dps numbers are much more visible. People love to see big numbers.

One fix is just to have the games use bigger parties. Somewhere along the line these games got the idea that the problem with queues was bigger parties and so they reduced them to the bare minimum. Problem is that’s the exact wrong thing to do. Larger parties create a better ratio of dps to tanks and healers. Imagine if dungeon parties in this game were 8 members(1 tank, 1 healer, 6dps). You’d have 3 times as many dps as tanks and healers. Notice how it’s alliance raids that always have dps in need.

They’re never going to change the overall distribution of roles that people choose. They’re better off acknowledging the ratio and building systems around it.

Also has to do with the amount of expectations and pressure that people place on them.

Tanks are expected to know the dungeon and the fights before even stepping into it for the first time, tanks are expected to know the layout of a dungeon (at least back before dungeons became linear) and exactly which trash should be pulled, which trash could be skipped safely, and now with linear dungeons, tanks are expected to know exactly how many groups of mobs you pull with each pull.

There are a lot of people who are in such a ridiculous hurry that if you, the tank pulls single groups, a DPS in a royal hurry will run forward and grab the next pack whether you want it or not, or sometimes even healers will do the same.

And then the boss fights. Some of them are not intuitive to just read what they do, though a lot of leveling dungeon bosses are these days, but some of them aren't and that could give people pause.

Contrast that with a DPS where.... as long as you don't stand in crap and you obey the occasional (1) mark on enemies, you're fine. You just kill whatever the tank grabs, just AoE the crap out of everything and single-target the bosses and that's really all you need to care about. It's a lot less mental work and very little if any pressure/expectations on your part.

I started FFXIV playing a PLD. I stopped playing PLD because I got tired of people expecting me to know a dungeon before I even stepped foot in it. So I switched to WHM because I don't want 15-20 minute queues for dungeons.

But lately, I don't really like the whole speedrunning community seeping into normal average random duty finder dungeons so I dunno. Kinda wish SE would put more barriers in dungeons to keep the pulls at 2 groups max.

[FirstnameLastname]

Also has to do with the amount of expectations and pressure that people place on them.

Tanks are expected to know the dungeon and the fights before even stepping into it for the first time, tanks are expected to know the layout of a dungeon (at least back before dungeons became linear) and exactly which trash should be pulled, which trash could be skipped safely, and now with linear dungeons, tanks are expected to know exactly how many groups of mobs you pull with each pull.

Uuh, no?

No idea where you come up with all that nonsense but is not the case.

[Casualty]

But lately, I don't really like the whole speedrunning community seeping into normal average random duty finder dungeons so I dunno. Kinda wish SE would put more barriers in dungeons to keep the pulls at 2 groups max.

Please no. No more linear gated hallways. This is part of what makes dungeons so dull. Give us room to wander or take different routes. Give us the opportunity to over pull and potentially fail. Let's see a modicum of challenge in all content.

[Maeka]

Please no. No more linear gated hallways. This is part of what makes dungeons so dull. Give us room to wander or take different routes. Give us the opportunity to over pull and potentially fail. Let's see a modicum of challenge in all content.

The problem with this, is that your average speedrun group just wants to get the dungeon done ASAP.

Branching paths and such are counter-productive to that, and will only become annoying.

There's a reason why people groan when Aurum Vale comes up as the Leveling Dungeon, and there's a reason why people hate the Wanderer's Palace (the one with the tonberry assassin stalkers, I think that's the one?).

I kinda miss the older style, but then I'm not one of those people in a perpetual hurry. Heck you got people complaining about tanks not doing optimal DPS so they can clear the dungeon 30 seconds sooner than they would otherwise, you kidding me?

Uuh, no?

No idea where you come up with all that nonsense but is not the case.

Over the years, I've seen several instances where a tank goes "Hi, I'm new here, please tell me anything I need to know" and see someone immediately drop group. People would rather eat a 15min debuff than have to explain things to a newbie tank who's never been there before.

And personally, I've gotten remarks of "you didn't have to pull that group" or "wrong way, go this way instead!" whenever I wanted to clear a side-room in those older dungeons and one-or-two occasions of "c'mon, I just wanna get through the dungeon already" type complaints. Maybe not verbatim but something that means essentially that.

[Yorumi]

The problem with this, is that your average speedrun group just wants to get the dungeon done ASAP.

Branching paths and such are counter-productive to that, and will only become annoying.

There's a reason why people groan when Aurum Vale comes up as the Leveling Dungeon, and there's a reason why people hate the Wanderer's Palace (the one with the tonberry assassin stalkers, I think that's the one?).

I kinda miss the older style, but then I'm not one of those people in a perpetual hurry. Heck you got people complaining about tanks not doing optimal DPS so they can clear the dungeon 30 seconds sooner than they would otherwise, you kidding me?

You keep saying speedrun as though it's somehow some cheat people are doing. I mean the devs have made it clear how many groups they think people should be allowed to pull. On top of that they gave us the tools to encourage larger pulls with aoes that are far more efficient on large groups and are borderline worthless on 3 targets. Then there's healers who has WAY WAY WAY WAY more healing power than is necessary for the damage that this game dishes out. The more you go into online games and demand that your way is the only right way to play the more problems you'll have.

Speaking of which if you don't want to play the way the party does then play with trusts. You can sit there and stare at the scenery all day long. To be quite frank here if you're honestly wiping as much as you claim and getting as many complaints as you claim the problem is you not everybody else. People have tried over and over on both the tank and healer forums to explain to you what you're doing wrong and all you seem to want to do is whine about everybody else. In playing since 2.0 I've never experienced anything close to what you claim to experience all the time in dungeons and I've played all roles. People hardly say anything beyond "hi" in dungeons even when a wipe happens. If you're being honest about what you experience then you need to stop and do some serious self reflection.

[Casualty]

You could still speed run the older content, including Aurum Vale. I think people disliked it so much because the opening had a ton of patrolling mobs and frogs with knockback, so to a newer/careless group it could spiral out of control quickly - and that was the beginning of the dungeon. It also had Coincounter who has an instant kill pbaoe without a visible ground telegraph, which was hard for some people.

While it's more open, there are no branching paths, just a few packs that are optional. A better example would be Haukke Manor or Dzemael Darkhold, along with your point about Wanderer's Normal. None of those typically get the hate that Aurum does.

I can tell you I speed run not because I need to have the dungeon over quickly (although that is a nice perk) but because if I pull one group at a time I have barely anything to mitigate (if I'm playing DRK it's questionable if TBN breaks), the healer has barely anything to heal, and the dps have barely enough mobs to effectively make aoe worthwhile over single target, but don't live long enough for a full single target rotation. It feels bad for everyone.

[Maeka]

You could still speed run the older content, including Aurum Vale. I think people disliked it so much because the opening had a ton of patrolling mobs and frogs with knockback, so to a newer/careless group it could spiral out of control quickly - and that was the beginning of the dungeon. It also had Coincounter who has an instant kill pbaoe without a visible ground telegraph, which was hard for some people.

While it's more open, there are no branching paths, just a few packs that are optional. A better example would be Haukke Manor or Dzemael Darkhold, along with your point about Wanderer's Normal. None of those typically get the hate that Aurum does.

I can tell you I speed run not because I need to have the dungeon over quickly (although that is a nice perk) but because if I pull one group at a time I have barely anything to mitigate (if I'm playing DRK it's questionable if TBN breaks), the healer has barely anything to heal, and the dps have barely enough mobs to effectively make aoe worthwhile over single target, but don't live long enough for a full single target rotation. It feels bad for everyone.

That's what I mean -- the added challenge of possible wipes and extra mob patrols and the jumping frogs is what people hate about Aurum Vale. The earlier poster who said "BRING BACK CHALLENGE!" is failing to realize that the vast majority of people running Duty Finder hate wipes, and hate getting killed.

And you know? I'd have to agree. I hate that first room of AV for exactly the same reasons as everybody else. So many people do stupid junk in that room and nobody wants to be careful so it's like... 6-7 times out of 10, there's going to be a wipe in that first room.

It's not that I'm against having to be careful, it's more that nobody wants to be careful and it's just annoying. Tanks just wanna run straight in, ranged DPS and healers wanna stand 50y away from the mobs we're fighting and aggro everything else in the room, blah blah blah blah.

But yes, you're only helping prove my point as to why people hate dungeons like Aurum Vale and why it is counter-productive to add them.

SE is giving the majority of the playerbase what they want. You can't fault them for that, to be honest.